Dark Souls II: The Thread, AND the Game!

[Hiro Protagonest]

If you want co-op play Monster Hunter. Don't have the console? Fine. Play Warframe. Close enough! Not every game is meant to be played co-op, even if it has multiplayer features! Particularly since they're unreliable multiplayer features.

[Murmaider]

Yeah, play Warframe instead of Dark Souls, a worthy substitution.

Or go play some football with your friends outside, the ultimate substitution.

[Wookieetank]

I really didn't find him that hard, but I think I was a bit over-leveled when I fought him.
I believe I just booked it to the stairs, killed the dogs with stabs from a halberd and just jump-stabbed/falling plunged it to death.
On my first try.

You're a luckier soul than I. My first time in the room I was dead before I regained control after passing through the wall of fog XD.

As for the PvP side of things, I think I got invaded 3 maybe 4 times total, but then I went through most of the game hallow. Not because I was trying to avoid PvP, but because of just how much I died. The only time I was human was when I was upgrading my bonfires, and even then I'd be lucky to make it to a boss alive to make use of summons (the castletop wall fight, and Quelag were the only two where I was able to have help in the fight.) The rest of the time it wasn't worth wasting a humanity on maybe making it to the boss.

I do like the idea behind the invading players though. The gist I got was that everyone playing Dark Souls was in the same multiverse, just in different dimensons and in some dimensions souls were so dark and malevolent that they would break through to cause havok elsewhere. It turning into a PvP stompfest is sad and obnoxious, but the idea behind its conception is neat for me.

[Rodin]

I think the best time for PvP in the new game is going to be right after it comes out. That's the time when you're going to have genuine PvP going on - a player that is at about the same point as the game as you deciding to Invade to try and get extra Humanity, or just as a break from trying to beat the level boss.

The PvP will actually be enjoyable because there will be something like an equal skill and equipment level between the players, rather than relatively newbish PvE players running into an un-ending stream of people who play the game solely for the PvP.

The biggest problem Dark Souls 1 has right now is that most of the people still playing it are doing so for the PvP. Heck, the PvP on my most recent playthrough this year was far worse than my first playthrough a year or so ago where you would get a reasonable number of close matches.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think the best time for PvP in the new game is going to be right after it comes out. That's the time when you're going to have genuine PvP going on - a player that is at about the same point as the game as you deciding to Invade to try and get extra Humanity, or just as a break from trying to beat the level boss.

The PvP will actually be enjoyable because there will be something like an equal skill and equipment level between the players, rather than relatively newbish PvE players running into an un-ending stream of people who play the game solely for the PvP.

The biggest problem Dark Souls 1 has right now is that most of the people still playing it are doing so for the PvP. Heck, the PvP on my most recent playthrough this year was far worse than my first playthrough a year or so ago where you would get a reasonable number of close matches.

^This, the game is what... 3 years old or so; so most players are avid PVPer, I am one of them and while I ocassionally do normal runs I still paly the game for PVP 9/10 times.

[Yora]

I'm a bit stuck in Demon's Souls.

I defeated Phalanx and Tower Knight, and have only the Red Eye Spear Guy and the Dragons left.
So I went to the Mine-World and made it to the Fire-Spider.

I'm not quite sure what I am supposed to do now. I got a shortspear and the plate armor set from the undead trader under the bridge, and got maybe 10 stat upgrades. Standard enemies are no problem and don't even slow me down and I have more healing items than I know what to do with,
Should I go to one of the other three worlds or is there something I might have missed so far?
I could try to defeat one of the bosses by spamming healing the whole time, but I'm not sure that this is the proper way to do it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Demon Souls is "open world" in the sense you can go to any area as you wish your skills being the only limiting factor. You are probably missing the pure-tendency events but those are best left to almost endgame IMO. Personally I'd clear the first two areas of the Shrine of Storms (World 3 I think), since there is pretty neat stuff in there and an awesome place to farm souls. Other option is to continue through world 2 and reach the second boss (whose soul is needed to make special weapons).

[Snowbluff]

Which is exactly why I recommended that invasion matchmaking factor in items and equipment.

Once you balance/account for gear there is no righteous excuse to whine about PvP.

Except you would also have to balance every build ever. PvP specific builds are, and always will be, very different from the ones people make for just playing the game. A lot of spells are either stuck in a PvE or PvP role, like Lightning Spears or TWoP. PvP also circles around what many would consider exploits, like moving out of an animation by switching a weapon, or swapping out rings mid-fight.

Lag will always be a problem for people with bad connections, or for people with good connections being unfortunately matched up against poor connections..

PvP will always hate being attacked by much more skilled players. Since Dark Souls does not have a ladder system of any sort, mismatches are very common. PvPers won't be challenged, and PvEers will be getting curb-stomped left and right.

I have honestly just been alt-F4ing whenever I see the invasion fog pop up or get the announcement unless I have already summoned the friend that I play with. It just isn't worth the hassle.

That's another thing. Fog gates can be a real pain if you've just loaded and want to take a few steps to a blacksmith.

[Surrealistik]

Except you would also have to balance every build ever. PvP specific builds are, and always will be, very different from the ones people make for just playing the game. A lot of spells are either stuck in a PvE or PvP role, like Lightning Spears or TWoP. PvP also circles around what many would consider exploits, like moving out of an animation by switching a weapon, or swapping out rings mid-fight.

No you don't. I'm not even going to attempt to assign individual weightings to anything but say rings, which would be a simple binary as to whether or not they factor (really, most of the defensive rings aren't even worth accounting for). Yes, it's not a perfect system and I straight up said as much: your PvE slaughtering greatsword is at a disadvantage against the PvP focused Chaos Blade, Estoc or Gold Tracer, as is Lightning Spear vs Dark Bead, but at least with comparable quality gear you have a fighting chance as opposed to none at all; that's miles ahead of the current system. As for 'exploits' they're available to PvEers as well, besides their subjectivity; I don't recognize that as an issue.

PvP will always hate being attacked by much more skilled players. Since Dark Souls does not have a ladder system of any sort, mismatches are very common. PvPers won't be challenged, and PvEers will be getting curb-stomped left and right.

I wouldn't be against a ladder system personally, but that said, PvPers going up against PvEers are often heading into a 2 or 3 v 1, so I'm not sure how necessary it is, besides one of the core tenants of Dark Souls being hard lessons and progress through pain.

[BRC]

I wouldn't be against a ladder system personally, but that said, PvPers going up against PvEers are often heading into a 2 or 3 v 1, so I'm not sure how necessary it is, besides one of the core tenants of Dark Souls being hard lessons and progress through pain.

Except that there's no Lesson to getting ganked in PvP except "Don't bother being Human", which isn't much of a lesson.

Every death in PvE is because you made a mistake somewhere. Stepped on a trap or misread an enemy's attack pattern or dodged off a cliff. Each Death Carries with it a lesson.
There is no lesson to dying in PvP except (Don't waste your humanity becoming human", and I guess "People suck".

[Snowbluff]

No you don't. I'm not even going to attempt to assign individual weightings to anything but say rings, which would be a simple binary as to whether or not they factor (really, most of the defensive rings aren't even worth accounting for). Yes, it's not a perfect system and I straight up said as much: your PvE slaughtering greatsword is at a disadvantage against the PvP focused Chaos Blade, Estoc or Gold Tracer, as is Lightning Spear vs Dark Bead, but at least with comparable quality gear you have a fighting chance as opposed to none at all; that's miles ahead of the current system. As for 'exploits' they're available to PvEers as well, besides their subjectivity; I don't recognize that as an issue.

IN DkS2, it looks like all gear will be based on scaling, anyway.

They're exploits. Using them constitutes intentionally using an error in programming. It's not necessary for playing against a boss to weapon swap out of a stagger animation or whatever. It's something you would have to learn in PvP to fight in PvP for little to no gain on your part if you're a PvEer. Some old exploits were specific to PvPers, like dragon head glitching.

I wouldn't be against a ladder system personally, but that said, PvPers going up against PvEers are often heading into a 2 or 3 v 1, so I'm not sure how necessary it is, besides one of the core tenants of Dark Souls being hard lessons and progress through pain.

Ladders would be great.

The lessons learned in PvP don't work in PvE. It's PvP for its own sake rather than something beneficial for the PvEer. So, where's my lesson? I just got dragon head glitched off a cliff. I just got crystal soul speared before knowing he was casting due to lag. I was playing a PvE tank build and I got stabbed in the back until dead. These aren't things that happen to me just playing the game.

[Surrealistik]

Ring swapping mid-fight is definitely not an exploit. Furthermore, many exploits are useful for PvP and PvE alike. I don't see this being a substantive criticism against compelled PvP.

I don't think it's fair to lay blame for connectivity/networking issues at the feet of PvP; you can also benefit from it vs invaders if you have phantoms aiding you besides, so it cuts both ways.

And lastly, though the lessons learned in PvP (assuming a fair fight in terms of SL and gear power) aren't as consistently applicable in PvE as they are outside player on player combat, there's definitely universal value in them: mastering parries, hard swaps, toggling, pivots, spacing and weapon timings via PvP for example definitely helps your PvE game without question (while of course helping you fight off later invasion attempts).

I'm not sure why people are complaining about ganks outside of the Forest and Dark Anor Londo (but hey, that's what you signed up for when you chose to kill titsmagee).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ring swapping mid-fight is definitely not an exploit.

He said weapon-swapping to cancel stagger.

[Surrealistik]

He said weapon-swapping to cancel stagger.

10chars, etc.

swapping out rings mid-fight.

[iyaerP]

The lessons learned in PvP don't work in PvE. It's PvP for its own sake rather than something beneficial for the PvEer. So, where's my lesson? I just got dragon head glitched off a cliff. I just got crystal soul speared before knowing he was casting due to lag. I was playing a PvE tank build and I got stabbed in the back until dead. These aren't things that happen to me just playing the game.

My favorite is that I perfectly land a hit with my black knight greatsword, but even though I watched my weapon clip through his body, the invulnerability during rolling means I did 0 damage. Meanwhile, he is able to perfectly backstab me from the side during my roll and take off 2/3 my health and get the rest with an AoE spell that kills me while I am still on the ground going through the stupidly long standup animation.

There is a reason that I don't care for this game's pvp. Because it is really REALLY poorly made, it is built explicitly for stupid BS ganking, and the terrible netcode and collision detection all compiles into the horrible mess that we have.

[Snowbluff]

I don't think it's fair to lay blame for connectivity/networking issues at the feet of PvP; you can also benefit from it vs invaders if you have phantoms aiding you besides, so it cuts both ways.

"Cuts both ways" doesn't mean it's not an issue for some people more than others.

And lastly, though the lessons learned in PvP (assuming a fair fight in terms of SL and gear power) aren't as consistently applicable in PvE as they are outside player on player combat, there's definitely universal value in them; mastering parries, hard swaps, toggling, pivots, spacing and weapon timings via PvP for example definitely helps your PvE game without question.

The only thing useful here is chain stabbing, and it was only really helpful against Havel. Enemies don't fight with the same weapons as players a vast majority of the time, and they don't utilize the same tactics.

He said weapon-swapping to cancel stagger.

I mentioned rings earlier. I don't personally consider it an exploit, but I consider it something player shouldn't have to learn to succeed. It's outside of the scope of the combat system.

I'm playing Devil's Advocate to show this isn't really as cut and dry people are making it.

[Surrealistik]

"Cuts both ways" doesn't mean it's not an issue for some people more than others.

The impact of lag is going to be inconsistent of course, but again, given that it pretty well nets to neutrality or even benefits a defender playing co-op I don't think lag is a valid criticism against PvP.

The only thing useful here is chain stabbing, and it was only really helpful against Havel. Enemies don't fight with the same weapons as players a vast majority of the time, and they don't utilize the same tactics.

Everything I listed in that quote is useful in PvE; sure, you don't _have_ to master all of those skills to succeed at PvE but it does step up your PvE game nonetheless.

[Snowbluff]

The impact of lag is going to be inconsistent of course, but again, given that it pretty well nets to neutrality or even benefits a defender playing co-op I don't think lag is a valid criticism against PvP.

Dedicated PvPers would have more experience exploiting it, putting the PvEer in a disadvantage.

Everything I listed in that quote is useful in PvE; sure, you don't _have_ to master all of those skills to succeed at PvE but it does step up your PvE game nonetheless.

Example: How I am using my longsword against a player using a player weapon is an entirely pointless skill in PvE.

Example: Not getting rolled BSed is an entirely pointless skill in PvE.

Example: Not getting parried by an opponent in a stand position is a pointless skill in PvE.

These are the fatal mistakes that people are making. My weapon does not function in the same way at all in PvP. Even then, I am learning how to use my weapon in PvE, PvP has nothing to teach me.

[Surrealistik]

Now you're just grasping.

Honestly that lag might slightly favour a PvPer because he has 'experience' with it despite its impact being often inconstant as any kind of material argument against compulsory PvP is ludicrous; it's just straight up weaksauce.

And yes, you're not going to get fancy with your weapons most of the time, but knowing exactly what you can and can't get away with to the fractional second in terms of recovery and start up times (because you'll be punished if you don't in PvP) and developing the requisite muscle memory to exploit that understanding helps you be a more efficient killer in PvE, and allows you to make better on the fly decisions. It is just flat out disingenuous to claim that there is no meaningful PvE takeaway from PvP combat. Are there irrelevant skills you acquire in PvP vis a vis PvE? Yes, but that doesn't mean there is no take away. In addition, those hard lessons also serve to improve your ability and readiness to ward off invaders the next time around.

[Snowbluff]

Now you're just grasping.

Honestly that lag might slightly favour a PvPer because he has 'experience' with it despite the impact of lag being often inconstant as any kind of material argument against compulsory PvP is ludicrous; it's just straight up weaksauce.

Player skill level and practicing skills specific to PvP. You've already admitted ladders would be a good idea. Without ladders being the case, this is an issue you've said is a problem. A PvP would know to circle while blocking and then BS, or to swing for shave damage to hopefully hit and negate the BS in that case, which could allow taking advantage of lag or mildly mitigate it.

It is just flat out disingenuous to claim that there is no meaningful PvE takeaway from PvP combat.

You're free tell tell everyone how all players behave exactly like PvE enemies. You're free to explain to all of them how they won't learn their skills to complete PvE if they don't PvP. You're free to explain to people that all of the time wasted fighting is worth the skills for wasting more time fighting in PvP.

Even if you are saying it's entirely fair, you've already admitted in this post they can learn the PvE relevant skills playing PvE.

[Hazzardevil]

Might I suggest that we rename the thread "Hate the thread, not the posters"
?

[Surrealistik]

Player skill level and practicing skills specific to PvP. You've already admitted ladders would be a good idea. Without ladders being the case, this is an issue you've said is a problem. A PvP would know to circle while blocking and then BS, or to swing for shave damage to hopefully hit and negate the BS in that case, which could allow taking advantage of lag or mildly mitigate it.

I said I _wouldn't mind_ skill ladders; I never said skill mismatches were a problem. In fact I explicitly said that I had reservations about the need or necessity for skill based match ups given the nature of Dark Souls and co-op.

Again, the unpredictable impact and extent of lag as well as it favouring co-op generally out it as a reason for being against PvP, particularly when lag is said to be significantly diminished by the new networking.

You're free tell tell everyone how all players behave exactly like PvE enemies. You're free to explain to all of them how they won't learn their skills to complete PvE if they don't PvP. You're free to explain to people that all of the time wasted fighting is worth the skills for wasting more time fighting in PvP.

Even if you are saying it's entirely fair, you've already admitted in this post they can learn the PvE relevant skills playing PvE.

Looks like you completely missed the point. As I've said, repeatedly now, PvP skills are useful for PvE, not essential. There is takeaway that _benefits_ your PvE game, but is not critical to succeed in PvE.

[Snowbluff]

I said I _wouldn't mind_ skill ladders; I never said skill mismatches were a problem. In fact I explicitly said that I had reservations about the need or necessity for skill based match ups given the nature of Dark Souls and co-op.

Again, the unpredictable impact and extent of lag as well as it favouring co-op generally out it as a reason for being against PvP, particularly when lag is said to be significantly diminished by the new networking.

What does a PvPer get in terms of skills from slaughtering a noob?

Lag will still be an issue. It's a fact of life.

Looks like you completely missed the point. As I've said, repeatedly now, PvP skills are useful for PvE, not essential. There is takeaway that _benefits_ your PvE game, but is not critical to succeed in PvE.

You've said they are not only learned in PvP. PvP is redundant, and therefore a waste of time for this effect.

[Surrealistik]

What does a PvPer get in terms of skills from slaughtering a noob?

Lag will still be an issue. It's a fact of life.

Not nearly enough of an issue to throw out the idea of obligatory PvP, or be a legitimate argument against it.

As for what a dickwraith gets out of slaughtering a newb, you'll have to ask them; I don't imagine you'll have much difficulty finding someone to answer.

You've said they are not only learned in PvP. PvP is redundant, and therefore a waste of time for this effect.

Short of some challenge runs, you'll never get the same calibre of muscle memory and timings drilled into you via PvE as you will in PvP as a singular example. If there are unique and applicable skills that can be acquired via PvP and there are, the lessons learned from it are neither redundant or a waste of time.

[Snowbluff]

Not nearly enough of an issue to throw out the idea of obligatory PvP, or be a legitimate argument against it.

As for what a dickwraith gets out of slaughtering a newb, you'll have to ask them; I don't imagine you'll have much difficulty finding someone to answer.

That's a cue telling me it's the perfect point. It will always be an issue. THe only muscle memories you are learning for being beaten to a pulp in a laggy match are akin to prefire and overfiring in CoD.

For actually aggressors, it's an absolute waste of time. PvPers get nothing but their handful of souls. No lessons are learned because they are playing against someone with none of the skill or interest to teach them. Anyone looking to challenge themselves, the heart of Dark Souls as some people would put it, they've achieved nothing.

Short of some challenge runs, you'll never get the same calibre of muscle memory and timings drilled into you via PvE as you will in PvP as a singular example. If there are unique and applicable skills that can be acquired via PvP and there are, the lessons learned from it are neither redundant or a waste of time.

That's incorrect when accounting for two points.

1) PvEers challenging themselves with challenge runs that you brought up.
2) PvEers intentionally drilling and playing daredevil with these skills. If it can use functional in PvE, it can be learned in PvE. Otherwise, it would be impossible to apply.

For example, dead angles with great scythes. If you can do it in PvP against a little hollow soldier, you can practice it against a hollow soldier. If you can't dead angle the little dude, it's not a valuable skill and you couldn't practice it in PvP. It would probably be more useful to try it versus Black Knights, though...

[Tiki Snakes]

Not nearly enough of an issue to throw out the idea of obligatory PvP, or be a legitimate argument against it.

You want a legitimate issue? Not everyone enjoys PVP, regardless of any balancing issues.

A lot of people simply don't like it, don't find it fun, or even find it outright distressing.
Obligatory PVP, in that sense, is only even a neutral asset to people for whom this isn't true. It only becomes a positive feature when you get to the group of people who actively enjoy PVP.

This seems to me to be both a legitimate issue and hard to argue with. People who hate PVP...are going to hate having to PVP.

You've also got the issue wherein, once playing the game, you aren't in charge of whether you have to PVP or not. It is the PVP crowd who dictate whether you have to deal with PVP or not. So PVP isn't something you have the option to do, rather it is something hostile that is done to you.

I find the entire setup of PVP in Dark Souls to be strange, counter-intuitive and very much out of the ordinary. But it's quite clear as well that this is working as intended. Which is why I say that griefing is an element of the game by design.

[Octopusapult]

Octupus, we aren't crying about the game being hard. We are crying about the completely unbalanced early levels in terms of PvP. It's not fun to just get one shot after you've spent an entire minute landing shot after shot on him and barely getting him to half health. It's especially not fun when this happens and you've been carefully moving forward for the last half hour but haven't reached a progression point (I.E. bonfire near the merchant, the kickdown ladder after Taurus demon) because the game is hard and unforgiving just in PvE. I haven't played a game in ages where once you level up more than five times the low level mooks are actually a threat if you don't royally <redacted> up. It is intenesly frustrating to have to repeat an entire section WHEN YOU DIDN'T MAKE A MISTAKE THAT CAUSED IT TO NEED TO BE REPEATED, especially in a game as unforgiving of mistakes as Dark Souls.

Yeah, and I'm right there with you. Know what I did? Got over it. Those guys exist and they come at you in the parish with Havels armor and lightning crossbows. Want to know the truth though? You're not a screwed as you think when they show up. They have 99 humanities and are there to mess with you, but they still only have that 13 vitality or so that they started with and not enough endurance to make a lot of melee swings. Just fight them and when you win one, you'll be so proud.

That's what Dark Souls is. Not holding your hand. Not making things easy. And a real big sense of accomplishment just for getting through an area, or killing an invader, even one who probably never stood a chance anyway.

THIS! I don't mind that pvp happens. I play plenty of games where PvP is a good, balanced, and fun mechanism. I mind it in this game because pvp ganking causes me to lose a LOT of time and effort in the PvE part of the game. And you can say "just play the game hollow" till you're blue in the face, but unless you have mastered the game the point where pvp gankers are not a threat, and until you have the lordvassel, you pretty much HAVE to go human to kindle bonfires to have enough estus to get to the next bonfire, etc.

So master the game. If your problem is everyone else is better than you or better at building characters than you then try mugenmonkey for build help. It has armor and weapon damage optimizers that I often use to find what I would take the best advantage of.

Go join the forest hunters. Play some PVP. See how not-that-hard it really is. And when you'll start looking forward to invasions like I do. I used to dashboard (360 version) when people invaded me too. Now I fight them and if they kill me I go "Oh well" and recover because humanity and souls aren't that hard to get.

IF I kill them I point downward and throw dung pies at their corpses.... Don't judge.

Which is exactly why I recommended that invasion matchmaking factor in items and equipment.

Once you balance/account for gear there is no righteous excuse to whine about PvP.

Bad idea considering suicide runs for things like the Gravelord Sword and Cloranthy Ring exist and I consider those both like mid-game items.

A better basis would be setting the matching parameters to In-game time. It wouldn't be perfect still, but I'd rather get paired off with the guy who's played 2-4 hours and is in my level range than the guy who has played 12-16 hours, has everything he needs for his SL-Whatever build, and is dominating everyone in the area.

Because I cannot stress enough that I understand a lot of the complaints, but everyone who isn't complaining has dealt with it to and reacted the way you're supposed to. Which is "Oh well. Time to try again."

Once again, I'm surprised by the amount of trouble people seem to have with PvP. Maybe it's just my playing on the PC and connection issues that kept me from being invaded too often.

You and me both.

I have honestly just been alt-F4ing whenever I see the invasion fog pop up or get the announcement unless I have already summoned the friend that I play with. It just isn't worth the hassle.

And you know what? That's totally acceptable. You might get some hatemail saying "WHY U RUN CASUL GET GUD"

But most people understand that invading is an aspect some players don't exactly look forward to. If there were a matchmaking option and we had the ability to choose who got invaded, we wouldn't pick you again intentionally is what I'm saying.

I think the best time for PvP in the new game is going to be right after it comes out. That's the time when you're going to have genuine PvP going on - a player that is at about the same point as the game as you deciding to Invade to try and get extra Humanity, or just as a break from trying to beat the level boss.

The PvP will actually be enjoyable because there will be something like an equal skill and equipment level between the players, rather than relatively newbish PvE players running into an un-ending stream of people who play the game solely for the PvP.

The biggest problem Dark Souls 1 has right now is that most of the people still playing it are doing so for the PvP. Heck, the PvP on my most recent playthrough this year was far worse than my first playthrough a year or so ago where you would get a reasonable number of close matches.

A souls game at launch is an amazing experience. It'll be the first time I grab an orange soapstone in souls for months and I'm writing "Try jumping" at every pit I find.

My favorite is that I perfectly land a hit with my black knight greatsword, but even though I watched my weapon clip through his body, the invulnerability during rolling means I did 0 damage. Meanwhile, he is able to perfectly backstab me from the side during my roll and take off 2/3 my health and get the rest with an AoE spell that kills me while I am still on the ground going through the stupidly long standup animation.

There is a reason that I don't care for this game's pvp. Because it is really REALLY poorly made, it is built explicitly for stupid BS ganking, and the terrible netcode and collision detection all compiles into the horrible mess that we have.

Connections in DS do suck. I've been backstabbed in my chest. I've been killed by watching my invaders swing at the air and the hits connect with me a few seconds later though I wasn't standing in that area. It's bad, you're right, but that's not every invasion. For every 5-10 good ones I get I get one bad one. And just like invasions and death in dark souls, it happens.

But hey, dedicated servers in DS2. So no more of that at least. (Or less of it at any rate.)

Might I suggest that we rename the thread "Hate the thread, not the posters"
?

I think Dark Souls is the only game exempt from the "Don't hate the player" saying. Because I love the game, I love the built in tools to make people act evil as they can, it's given me some of my favorite gaming experiences ever. But there's those full havels wearing gankers and giantdads and all those other guys who lack any creativity despite being handed so much to work with who think they're gods gift to stupidity.

I really hate some of the players, but I love the game.

You want a legitimate issue? Not everyone enjoys PVP, regardless of any balancing issues.

A lot of people simply don't like it, don't find it fun, or even find it outright distressing.
Obligatory PVP, in that sense, is only even a neutral asset to people for whom this isn't true. It only becomes a positive feature when you get to the group of people who actively enjoy PVP.

This seems to me to be both a legitimate issue and hard to argue with. People who hate PVP...are going to hate having to PVP.

You've also got the issue wherein, once playing the game, you aren't in charge of whether you have to PVP or not. It is the PVP crowd who dictate whether you have to deal with PVP or not. So PVP isn't something you have the option to do, rather it is something hostile that is done to you.

I find the entire setup of PVP in Dark Souls to be strange, counter-intuitive and very much out of the ordinary. But it's quite clear as well that this is working as intended. Which is why I say that griefing is an element of the game by design.

The thing is that there's no PVP / PVE divide anymore. The game isn't a PVP game at its heart. But that element won't go away in DS2 and there's nothing anyone can do about it really (except the item that gives you a pass on invasions, but I think it's a ring or something? Not sure.)

So what you have to do now is just treat it like it is. A thing that will happen. A challenge which will be unique to you. Your playstyle, your build, is going to be squared off against someone elses who could be any hundreds of ways different than yours. He could lure you to an edge and try to force you off, or make you fight your PvE enemies and him at the same time. ANYTHING can happen and that is truly a great and amazing experience.

Yes, I'm fighting all of you about it because I want you to see it the way I do. It's unique to you. All the stories you'll have about invaders, even the ones who kill you, are great experiences and will make you better. Remember where you got drop attacked and check there next time. Remember where they used chameleon to hide from you and backstab you as you walked by. Remember that if they're not holding a weapon, they might be using Invisible Blade. You learn these tricks, get smarter, and enjoy the game more when you overcome them.

I promise it's worth it to just fall into the PVP. Let it drive you to the edge and take you in. And once you embrace your losses you can really truly enjoy your victories.

[Snowbluff]

I like it how he says we should just go with it and not withdraw from PvP, even though he axed himself from our discussion.

Anyway, I'd like to thank Surreal for not ignoring me. I'm just trying to say it's not an easy problem, and that not everyone is going to be happy with any changes. Both sides have reasons for what they want, but I personally don't think it has to be compulsory, even if I will be doing more PvP in DkS2. I don't really have the need to argue this further, but I won't ask you guys to agree to disagree, either.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why does the Washing Pole have the same leap attack as the Uchigatana and Longsword? It's a nodachi, it shouldn't work like that!

[Snowbluff]

Why does the Washing Pole have the same leap attack as the Uchigatana and Longsword? It's a nodachi, it shouldn't work like that!

Uchikatana are dex weapons despite being functionally equivalent to a longsword in real life. What the heck?!