Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

[Daimbert]

I kind of think the Centauri Emperor does not care about such things as ''political capital'' anymore. And making a request to see an ambassador is not so wild and crazy. For that matter, why not ''ask'' to address the B5 committee?

Then you weren't paying attention to, well, the entire show and Londo's arc. Politics matters greatly to the Centauri. If the Emperor loses his political capital, AT BEST his underlings will use that lack to do the things they want done -- and that benefit them -- rather than what HE wants done. At worst, you end up with what happened to Cartagia.

Still, you'd think someone could have taken like ten seconds to say ''wow, telepathic contact over lots of light years...I did not know that was possible."

That they don't implies that they were, indeed, aware that it could be done, at least in that case. And the episode strongly strongly implies that it is their special connection that allows for it, not that they are simply that powerful. Doesn't it flat-out mention that they train together specially for that?

[tomandtish]

The shadow warrior was an example of a ''new'' race on the prowl? Ok....

And sure, some characters...mostly G'Kar have thought a ''new '' (or old) race with a advance and powerful military have been ''around'', but we don't see the Earthforce people saying or thinking that. Even in this episode they are like ''um, a mystery'' attacked the Narn place...and not ''It must have been a ''new '' (or old) race with a advance and powerful military.

The humans have been hearing rumors of something out there that's new to them. But it's not hard to believe that they think that anyone with the military presence to wipe out a Narn fleet is something they would have heard about well before now.

Part of this whole arc is them slowly coming to the realization that there's a force out there that is a match for Vorlons that they didn't have a clue about.

It'd be the same if race of mole men that live 100s of miles below the surface eliminated the dinosaurs, and have just been biding time for millions of years. It's not going to be our first thought, because we'd assume anyone that powerful would have been active.

[Darth Ultron]

Gropos


General Franklin brings 25,000 troops aboard B5 for some final planning before a dangerous mission.

General Richard Franklin-Hum..wonder what side he was on during the Civil War?

Things that don't Make Sense:

The Schwarzkopf- Lol, well that sure is a '90's name for a ship. And it really stands out as a named Earthforce destroyer named for a person. Just about all the other Earthforce destroyers we see are named after things in mythology, just about all Greek mythology. Sadly there is no EAS Shiva or EAS Thor. But ''Storming Norman'' is a bit of an odd choice for a space battleship name. Sure, people back in the mid '90's knew who Schwarzkopf is/was....but I'm not sure he made that big of dent in history. Does anyone even in 2017 know who Storming Norman Schwarzkopf was? Or is the ship named after Admiral Arno Schwarzkopf of the Dilgar War?

And the Schwarzkopf is a lowly Nova class destroyer with no rotating section, so poor General Franklin has to float around in mirco gravity while on his ship. I bet the EAS 'Mad Dog' Mattis was an omega class destroyer with a spinning section.

The Cover Story- The 25,000 troops are ''relief troops for Io''? As in Io, the moon of Jupiter. So just where in the Earth Alliance are the 25, 000 troops coming from ''under the cover''? Like are there 25,000 plus some troops on Vega Colony so it would make sense for them to go from there, to B5 and then to Io? They can't be coming from Earth or Mars ( or anywhere in the Sol system) as they would need to go to Io to use the Jump Gate....

Bunkmates- Um, would there not be some sort of announcement to B5 personnel about the unwilling quartering of military troops? Keffer wanders into his quarters like he has no idea about the 25,000 troops or the bunkmates.

No Third Amendment- Well, guess Earthforce/Earthgov as a planet wide government would not have the Bill of Rights of just one country, no matter how good or right, apply to all of Earth.

Mines? - One of the weapons upgrades that B5 gets are space mines. Mines? And mine launchers? Like B5 would launch mines, um, at a target and then have them float around in space until they hit a target? A guess they are stealth mines too?

Interceptors- I guess these are the big guns that shoot...um anti-energy that somehow ''intercept'' incoming energy blasts?


Final C- This episode is not unpleasant to watch, since there is some nice dialog and humorous scenes. I enjoyed the sergeant-major's cajoling of his troops. However, most of it is just too obvious. The gropos we meet are largely stereotypes. We even got a traditional bar fight that has to happen whenever there are a lot of troops around. The initially strained but later fixed-up relationship between the two Franklins was way too predictable.

[Rodin]

Mines? - One of the weapons upgrades that B5 gets are space mines. Mines? And mine launchers? Like B5 would launch mines, um, at a target and then have them float around in space until they hit a target? A guess they are stealth mines too?

They would presumably be used to mine the jump gate. Limited utility I guess since big ships can make their own jump points, but the ships that attack the station in season 3 enter via the gate. The mystery is why B5 didn't use them. Either real-world budgetary constraints or plot constraints would be my guess. They put this line in to foreshadow the mines, but then the mines proved too expensive or they were deemed "too aggressive" for a Babylon 5 that wasn't willing to fire first.

Interceptors- I guess these are the big guns that shoot...um anti-energy that somehow ''intercept'' incoming energy blasts?

Makes sense to me - the energy blasts aren't light speed like the lasers we see on other ships. This means that they're likely super-heated plasma or some such, which makes firing into the blasts a logical way to disperse them. At a very basic level, you have incoming vector meeting reverse vector. That's hard to power through.

[factotum]

Mines? - One of the weapons upgrades that B5 gets are space mines. Mines? And mine launchers? Like B5 would launch mines, um, at a target and then have them float around in space until they hit a target? A guess they are stealth mines too?

In the battle of Gorash VII the Narn fire "energy mines", which fly out a long way from the ships and then explode, causing damage to everything nearby. Maybe this is because JMS thinks that a missile or torpedo has to actually hit its target to be so named?

[Daimbert]

Gropos

The Cover Story- The 25,000 troops are ''relief troops for Io''? As in Io, the moon of Jupiter. So just where in the Earth Alliance are the 25, 000 troops coming from ''under the cover''? Like are there 25,000 plus some troops on Vega Colony so it would make sense for them to go from there, to B5 and then to Io? They can't be coming from Earth or Mars ( or anywhere in the Sol system) as they would need to go to Io to use the Jump Gate....

They'd be coming from various outposts and bases around Earth and Allied space. Remember, the ACTUAL mission involved a nearby but unaligned territory. Earth Force would certainly have bases near territories where they might need to do things.

In fact, the "relief" for Io might well have been rotating those troops back or closer to home.

Bunkmates- Um, would there not be some sort of announcement to B5 personnel about the unwilling quartering of military troops? Keffer wanders into his quarters like he has no idea about the 25,000 troops or the bunkmates.

They likely would have sent it out as a general E-mail-type announcement. Keffer had been on duty and likely hadn't checked in yet, and hadn't heard it through the grapevine.

No Third Amendment- Well, guess Earthforce/Earthgov as a planet wide government would not have the Bill of Rights of just one country, no matter how good or right, apply to all of Earth.

I had to look that one up, but remember that Babylon 5 is technically a military station, too, and the only "unwilling" assignments were to the quarters of military personnel. Military personnel do not own their quarters.

In the battle of Gorash VII the Narn fire "energy mines", which fly out a long way from the ships and then explode, causing damage to everything nearby. Maybe this is because JMS thinks that a missile or torpedo has to actually hit its target to be so named?

I believe that the B5 Wars game states that they can and do actually use them as normal mines as well, hence the naming. They've just found a way to use them more directly in battle, too.

[Darth Ultron]

They would presumably be used to mine the jump gate. Limited utility I guess since big ships can make their own jump points, but the ships that attack the station in season 3 enter via the gate. The mystery is why B5 didn't use them. Either real-world budgetary constraints or plot constraints would be my guess. They put this line in to foreshadow the mines, but then the mines proved too expensive or they were deemed "too aggressive" for a Babylon 5 that wasn't willing to fire first.

Also.''Mines'' are a bit ''politically incorrect'' and ''evil'', so you want to avoid the word ''mine''.

In the battle of Gorash VII the Narn fire "energy mines", which fly out a long way from the ships and then explode, causing damage to everything nearby. Maybe this is because JMS thinks that a missile or torpedo has to actually hit its target to be so named?

Humm, maybe. I don't think I've ever heard something you ''shoot towards an enemy'' a ''mine'' . Sounds more like a missile or torpedo.

They likely would have sent it out as a general E-mail-type announcement. Keffer had been on duty and likely hadn't checked in yet, and hadn't heard it through the grapevine.

Amazingly B5 might be pre e-mail. Now sure ''e-mail'' has existed from like the '80's, like when you'd get one e-mail a month on your CompuServe Electronic Mail Exchange. But E-mail did not really become more common place until the late '90's.

The ''The Sudden Death Toll Text'' is one of the few times we even see a ''text message'' .

I had to look that one up, but remember that Babylon 5 is technically a military station, too, and the only "unwilling" assignments were to the quarters of military personnel. Military personnel do not own their quarters.

Does make me wonder if anyone from Security got a bunk mate or two. It would seem to be more then just the B5 command staff and pilots, though as that can't be more then like a couple hundred people. Not even close to bunk 25,000.

[Cikomyr]

Also.''Mines'' are a bit ''politically incorrect'' and ''evil'', so you want to avoid the word ''mine''.

What?! Thats a silly argument

[Daimbert]

Amazingly B5 might be pre e-mail. Now sure ''e-mail'' has existed from like the '80's, like when you'd get one e-mail a month on your CompuServe Electronic Mail Exchange. But E-mail did not really become more common place until the late '90's.

The ''The Sudden Death Toll Text'' is one of the few times we even see a ''text message'' .

Regardless, they would have simply sent a message, like a Babcom message, and Keffer wouldn't have had the time to check his by that point.

Does make me wonder if anyone from Security got a bunk mate or two. It would seem to be more then just the B5 command staff and pilots, though as that can't be more then like a couple hundred people. Not even close to bunk 25,000.

Any rooms that were set aside for the specific use of station personnel and/or were assigned to station personnel as their quarters by Babylon 5 itself would count as Babylon 5 quarters. It's only ambassadorial quarters and quarters that a civilian would have personally rented that wouldn't be subject to this.

[Rodin]

What?! Thats a silly argument

Especially so since the heroic characters use mines on a couple of different occasions. Sheridan uses a nuclear mine to blow up the Black Star, and then does so again later to piss off the Shadows and Vorlons in the big climactic fight.

[Cikomyr]

Especially so since the heroic characters use mines on a couple of different occasions. Sheridan uses a nuclear mine to blow up the Black Star, and then does so again later to piss off the Shadows and Vorlons in the big climactic fight.

And DS9 used a minefield as a huge plot point

[Darth Ultron]

All Alone in the Night

Sheridan is captured and studied by unfamiliar aliens.


Flight Pay-So Earthforce folks get bonus fight pay? Well, guess that is why everyone flies a starfury.

The Mars vs. Earth team trash talk is a bit funny, even with the ''gravity'' replacing ''temperature'' or ''grass'' or such.

Robert Foxworth-who plays General Hague, has been in a lot of shows and movies. Sci-Fi wise he is best know as being the voice of Ratchet in all the Bay Transformer movies and Admiral Leyton on Star Trek DS9(and at the same time frame as B5 too).

Guess someone watched The Gamesters of Triskelion before writing this show...

Weird Tech- everyone has ''privacy devices'' so they can't be over heard in this episode.... makes sense. Guess we will see them use them from now on all the time, right (wink, wink)

Things that don't Make Sense:

The Minbari worker case comes out of nowhere with this episode. Remember there were only two case back in season one.

Red shirt pilot Rmarize-So with Keifer part of the cast, wonder why he did not get to fly with the captain. Being a pilot is his only job... He does not even get to go on the rescue mission.

The Stribes-Are yet another ''gray'' alien type race that abduct people, like the Vree.

Kosh's Vision-So Kosh sends Sheridan a telepathic vision and then shows up to do the ''it was not just a dream''. SO....this does make one wonder if Kosh set up the whole abduction in the first place? And did Kosh send the telepathic dream over like a couple light years of space?

The Escape- The Streibs look pretty dumb letting Sheridan and Ta'Lon escape....but then maybe they had orders and/or were controlled or manipulated....

The Pod- Well, Sheridan and Ta'Lon find the escape pod in like ten seconds. Right before the Agamemnon obliterates the Streib ship. Amazing luck....or maybe the Streibs had orders and/or were controlled or manipulated....

The Good Conspiracy- Well, Sheridan being a Good Rebel, kinda comes out of nowhere...but guess he was ''in hiding''.

The Presidents Death- Well, they talk like kinda maybe sort of something might be going on....but no one says ''oh, remember that plot from the first episode of season two''.

Final-C, This episode has a lot of interesting stuff in it, but it's mostly the secondary points in the episode. The main plot - Sheridan's abduction - seems pretty off-the wall and completely arbitrary in its timing. The Streib decide to abduct him on the same day Hague is supposed to arrive? This just seems contrived.

[Rodin]

The Minbari worker case comes out of nowhere with this episode. Remember there were only two case back in season one.

Cite? The Worker caste may not have been mentioned by name (not sure either way), but I'm pretty sure we DO see the Grey Council and there are nine of them even then. The Worker caste in general just doesn't have a lot of plot significance so they don't get mentioned often.

Red shirt pilot Rmarize-So with Keifer part of the cast, wonder why he did not get to fly with the captain. Being a pilot is his only job... He does not even get to go on the rescue mission.

See: Redshirt. Does Keffer even show up in this episode? They probably didn't want to pay the actor extra.

Kosh's Vision-So Kosh sends Sheridan a telepathic vision and then shows up to do the ''it was not just a dream''. SO....this does make one wonder if Kosh set up the whole abduction in the first place? And did Kosh send the telepathic dream over like a couple light years of space?

I've had it in my headcanon that this was due to a part of Kosh already being in Sheridan's head. I don't remember there ever being a "Vorlon entering someone" scene with Sheridan like there is with Lyta, so I'm not certain when Kosh makes the connection.

The Escape- The Streibs look pretty dumb letting Sheridan and Ta'Lon escape....but then maybe they had orders and/or were controlled or manipulated....

Their ship was kinda being blown up at the time. They had more important things to worry about than a couple of escaping prisoners.

I've got no idea where the idea of the Streib being controlled comes from. Finding the escape pod is slightly convenient because plot, but logically there would be a large number of escape pods spaced evenly throughout the ship. I don't find it even remotely implausible that Sheridan would stumble across one.

[factotum]

Their ship was kinda being blown up at the time. They had more important things to worry about than a couple of escaping prisoners.

Thinking about it, it's kind of odd that the first action the Agamemnon takes when coming out of hyperspace is to open fire, isn't it? For all they knew Sheridan could have been imprisoned in the part of the ship that they fired at...

[Rodin]

Thinking about it, it's kind of odd that the first action the Agamemnon takes when coming out of hyperspace is to open fire, isn't it? For all they knew Sheridan could have been imprisoned in the part of the ship that they fired at...

They're really aggressive throughout. They fire on a ship full of abductees without knowing where they are, then when the Streib flush the prisoners out into space they proceed to blow up the ship without considering that some prisoners might still be alive on the ship. Then it's strongly implied that they were going to shoot down the escape pods, which in every Sci-Fi universe I've seen is a war crime.

[Darth Ultron]

Cite? The Worker caste may not have been mentioned by name (not sure either way), but I'm pretty sure we DO see the Grey Council and there are nine of them even then. The Worker caste in general just doesn't have a lot of plot significance so they don't get mentioned often.

In season one, they clearly say Minbari have two: Religious and Warrior.

I've had it in my headcanon that this was due to a part of Kosh already being in Sheridan's head. I don't remember there ever being a "Vorlon entering someone" scene with Sheridan like there is with Lyta, so I'm not certain when Kosh makes the connection.

So you think a ''part'' of Kosh is all ready inside Sheridan? Guess there is no way to know for sure, as we don't see it happen.

Their ship was kinda being blown up at the time. They had more important things to worry about than a couple of escaping prisoners.

What about the hours before that?

I've got no idea where the idea of the Streib being controlled comes from. Finding the escape pod is slightly convenient because plot, but logically there would be a large number of escape pods spaced evenly throughout the ship. I don't find it even remotely implausible that Sheridan would stumble across one.

The Vorlons and the Shadows are the same: they both like to manipulate and control things from behind the curtain. B5 only gives us like a dozen examples of both. But. Any time anything happens you have to wonder: was this a set up and part of a plan?

Did the Vorlons help make sure the Great Machine was put on Epsilon 3? Did the Vorlons make sure space politics kept Epsilon 3 ''neutral space''? Did the Vorlons make sure that Epsilon 3 was the site of the Babylon station project? Did the Vorlons ''fake'' the whole ''our ambassador was poisoned on day one'' thing from the Gathering?

So it's an open question of: any time anything happens is it just ''random life happens'' or is it a ''Vorlon plot''?

Like take the Streib:

Streib version 1: They are a race of evil aggressive abductor types that are looking to expand. The Vorlons come along and find them and keep tabs on them, as they might be useful in the future. The Vorlons make sure they don't become a ''major power'' and make sure they ''stay away from Earth'' and otherwise keep them in check in all sorts of subtitle ways. Like for example a couple telepathic suggestions of ''we Streib's must use all our money to help the poor and give them health care'' could keep their society in turmoil and keep them from having a space program for years or decades or centuries. To use Earth as an fictional example: Earth had space travel in 1969. But then what happened? By 2017 Earth has very little space travel. If an alien wanted to keep Earthlings ''on Earth'', they have done a wonderful job. This is the type of thing the Vorlons do.

Streib version 2: The Vorlons created them. They found the caveman Streilb and altered them into the modern day race. Maybe even without the Streilb knowing, other then legends and stories. And then the race just ''does whatever they were (programed, wink wink) want to do. So the Vorlons get a race that abducts and studies other races, that they get all the information from, and they have ''plausible deniability'' of ''we don't even know that race'' (wink wink).

Streib verson 3: The Vorlons control the Streib directly as they are a ''race that aids the Vorlons'', like the Drac aid the shadows.


But ''Version 4'' gets a little wacky...like bad TV show wacky. Like..ok....so there is a race called the Streib that have tech just about as advanced as Earths, live on a homeworld like a jump or two right next to Babylon 5, that on other race in the whole universe, other then the Minbari know of, but they have been abducting people for years. And then suddenly, for no reason, the Streib decided to go and plunder the ''B5 sector''. And, right at that exact time, Captain Sheridan is feeling bored and wants to get off the station. So it falls together perfectly of ''oh, something strange in the neighborhood'' and ''I want to feel space under me again'', like amazing perfect timing. And then amazingly the Streib bump right into Sheridan's patrol...and amazingly capture only him(kinda like they were told to do that...wink wink). Then they do a little probe and such...but amazingly don't do the mind control bit on Sheridan (everyone else we see gets one...hum, like they were told to do that...wink wink). Then they let Sheridan just do whatever he wants...for endless hours....and lets him escape. Oh, and then they go and ''hang out'' by their homeworld and let Sheridan get in a escape pod and get away....oh, and then they space their other prisoners and ''Crazy Ivioniva'' does the ''Kill 'em all''. Sure...guess all of that could have happened by random chance.....

They're really aggressive throughout. They fire on a ship full of abductees without knowing where they are, then when the Streib flush the prisoners out into space they proceed to blow up the ship without considering that some prisoners might still be alive on the ship. Then it's strongly implied that they were going to shoot down the escape pods, which in every Sci-Fi universe I've seen is a war crime.

I'd guess the B5 Earth Alliance is a bit more Regan/Bush/Trump(Truman/Churchill/Jefferson/Genius Khan) then the other side of Carter/Clinton/Obama.

You can guess Earth tried to do it the ''Peace and Love'' way at first, but kept running into alien aliens that were like just evil and pew pew. So Earth folk had to adapt. Really, it's a lot like a big theme in Star Trek Enterprise. They want the Enterprise to ''peacefully explore the universe and hug all the aliens they meet''. But they find out pretty quick that at least half the aliens in the universe are evil and inhuman to say the least. And by season 2 they get the idea that ''exploring in a heavily armed battle curser'' and ''aggressive diplomacy'' is the way to go. So it's not ''oh sure well will expose ourselves in good faith and let you take advantage of us'' it's more ''smart and intelligent'' then that.

War crime....well, the interesting twist is B5 is kinda like say ''12 th century'' Earth in that there is trade and some government communication...but there is no real, worldwide ''international law''. And really, Earth does not get that until like after WW2. After all in WW2 it was still ok and legal to bomb and blow up hospitals and medical people (as you will see in plenty of WW2 movies too).

[HardcoreD&Dgirl]

This is such a cool idea, I just watched a show about this show...

he did season 1 like a month ago and I just watched the season 2 one,


season 1 https://youtu.be/ufu9ZvOuyfE
season 2 https://youtu.be/RUt6zR7YeVA

I hope he doesn't wait a month for season 3... I disagree with him though, I think season 2 has more great episodes, and even season 1 he down plays a bit.

[tomandtish]

Cite? The Worker caste may not have been mentioned by name (not sure either way), but I'm pretty sure we DO see the Grey Council and there are nine of them even then. The Worker caste in general just doesn't have a lot of plot significance so they don't get mentioned often.
.

In season one, they clearly say Minbari have two: Religious and Warrior.

Yeah, in the episode Grail.

Jinxo: That's really nice! I mean, with the war and all, I figured you folks would…well, you know.
Lennier: There are two castes of Minbari, the warrior caste and the religious caste. The warrior caste would not understand. It is not their way.
Delenn: So we will not tell them, and spare them the confusion.
Aldous: These two sides of your culture, do they ever agree on anything?
Delenn: Yes. And when they do, it is a terrible thing. A terrible power, as recent events have shown us. Let us hope it never again happens in our lifetime.

So it is a bit of a retcon. If you want to justify it, remember that a lot of the Minbari we meet are shown to be rather disregarding of the Worker caste. And in season 1 Delenn herself is still in the process of change after the events of the war. So it's not unrealistic that they are talking about the only two they think actually matter.

[Daimbert]

So it is a bit of a retcon. If you want to justify it, remember that a lot of the Minbari we meet are shown to be rather disregarding of the Worker caste. And in season 1 Delenn herself is still in the process of change after the events of the war. So it's not unrealistic that they are talking about the only two they think actually matter.

Or the only ones that matter in the context of the war. At the end, when the Council gets reformed, one of the arguments Delenn uses for giving the Worker caste dominance is that they're the ones who have to fix everything that gets broken during the various wars, and so are likely to be less inclined to start new ones or fight civil wars.

We can take from this that the Worker caste probably wasn't all that thrilled with the war in the first place, and might well have made up the bulk of the Council members who voted against the initial direct retaliation against Earth.

[factotum]

One wonders if the real life reason for the change was that somebody pointed out to JMS that a society consisting solely of religious and warrior types wouldn't have anyone to fix the plumbing.

[tomandtish]

One wonders if the real life reason for the change was that somebody pointed out to JMS that a society consisting solely of religious and warrior types wouldn't have anyone to fix the plumbing.

Or if someone pointed out that you couldn't have equal distribution between the two in a council of nine, so one group would always be at an advantage. Which would have opened up more questions of how the nine were selected. 4 from each and one chosen at large?

Alternatively, given that the Minbari system doesn't work quite the same as ours does (since people can apparently change castes), it's possible that the initial thought was there were two castes, but not everyone belong to a caste.

[Darth Ultron]

One wonders if the real life reason for the change was that somebody pointed out to JMS that a society consisting solely of religious and warrior types wouldn't have anyone to fix the plumbing.

I'd guess that warrior and religious types would cover everything. Maybe like acolytes and privates build things.

I think it came about when JMS had the idea to make the Minbari ''based on three''. It made no sense for the government to not be ''of threes''. So he had to add the workers quick.

It's kinda like the odd Star Trek thing where ''all'' the Klingons are ''warrior born'', but then who does all the work in society?

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• Acts of Sacrifice
• Hunter, Prey
• There All the Honor Lies

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

(Sorry for the late post - I had relatives driving in from another state arriving late last night, and by the time I was done greeting them I'd forgotten all about this thread.)

[Rodin]

Acts of Sacrifice - Good A plot which goes pretty deep into the Narn/Centauri war, and G'Kar shines throughout the episode. Never liked Ivanova's B plot though - the alien ambassador is odious, and the expectation that Ivanova sleep with him to seal the deal was cringeworthy even at the time and moreso now.

Hunter, Prey - Just an all around good episode. Shows the building tensions on Earth, and the chase is quite tense. It's also a big Garibaldi/Franklin episode that showcases their developing friendship. My one complaint has always been Kosh allowing Jacobs to hide in his ship. There isn't really indication why he would do this, apart from getting on Sheridan's good side. I suppose it was a useful flanking maneuver against the Shadows to discredit Clark? Presumably their plan would have been to depose Clark at some point to get Earth on the side of the Vorlons, but it never really comes up and the logic is kind of a reach.

There All the Honor Lies - I really detest this one. Delenn is like a different person, incredibly mistrusting of Sheridan despite the supposed course of events being wildly out out of character for him. It's also just a LITTLE convenient that the Minbari word for surrender happens to sound like "Death first". And that the guy was willing to die just so Sheridan would be discredited, rather than just...y'know, murdering him. The bit about Minbari not lying comes right out of nowhere and is an obvious retcon. The whole thing is just ridiculous.

Edit: Also, shouldn't Sheridan have known about the whole "Minbari not lying" thing? He is effectively an ambassador in his role as station commander and head of the Babylon 5 Advisory Council. You would think that something as defining to a culture as that would be Diplomacy 101 - you would never accuse a Minbari of lying in much the same way you would never offer a Muslim ambassador an alcoholic drink. It's basic stuff that Sheridan should have known, and more proof that it was retconned in for the purpose of this episode.

The one good thing are the miscellaneous B plots. Kosh's moment of beauty, Vir getting reassurance from Londo, everything to do with gift shop - all good stuff. It's just a shame they're attached to such an awful main plot.

[factotum]

Acts of Sacrifice: Have to agree with m'learned colleague above, never did like the B plot of this one. I think having such a silly B plot in an episode where the main plot is so heavy and sad may have been a deliberate attempt at comedy relief, but it just doesn't work if that was the case. The A plot, though--the war's only been on for a little while and already G'Kar is realising that his people are bound to lose it without outside help, which comes as a crushing blow to him.

Hunter, Prey: Never did quite understand why there was a section of the station that was sealed off when it was built--if the machines in there are still active then they surely need maintenance, and if they're not, why not just dump them or dismantle them for materials? Anyway, the most interesting bit about this episode is what it reveals about Kosh's ship--it appears to be a living, intelligent organism, judging from the non-human life signs and the fact the Doctor says it "sang" to him while he was inside it. I don't remember if the proof that Clarke faked his illness to get off Earthforce One before it blew up actually comes in to play later in the series...shame if it doesn't, because this is a good episode and you'd want it to be significant in the long run.

There All the Honor Lies: OK, we get it, Sheridan destroyed the Black Star. How many different Minbari are going to try and get back at him for that? It was nearly ten years ago. Are there legions of ex Earthforce personnel secretly plotting to kill Minbari because of all the Earthforce ships they blew up during the war? As for the B plot about the shop, I think it was only created to support the joke about throwing the bear out the airlock--the bear in question was given to JMS by the wife of someone on the production crew, hence the initials JS inscribed on it, and I guess he didn't like it much! Londo threatening to resign unless Vir stays is nice of him, but I can't help but wonder if he'd have done that if he thought there was any chance at all the resignation would be accepted...

[Rodin]

Hunter, Prey: Never did quite understand why there was a section of the station that was sealed off when it was built--if the machines in there are still active then they surely need maintenance, and if they're not, why not just dump them or dismantle them for materials? Anyway, the most interesting bit about this episode is what it reveals about Kosh's ship--it appears to be a living, intelligent organism, judging from the non-human life signs and the fact the Doctor says it "sang" to him while he was inside it. I don't remember if the proof that Clarke faked his illness to get off Earthforce One before it blew up actually comes in to play later in the series...shame if it doesn't, because this is a good episode and you'd want it to be significant in the long run.

It gets a brief mention in a later episode when the anti-Clarke faction goes public with everything they have - it serves as corroborating evidence that Clarke knew something was going to go down on EarthForce One. It gets used in the investigation which kicks off the civil war when Clarke's troops storm the senate building to stop it.

As for the B plot about the shop, I think it was only created to support the joke about throwing the bear out the airlock--the bear in question was given to JMS by the wife of someone on the production crew, hence the initials JS inscribed on it, and I guess he didn't like it much!

That's awesome, I never knew that! It does also serve as a vehicle for the brilliant gag about Londo being cast...in a bad light, but with that info it's pretty obvious they tossed the bear out the airlock and then worked backwards.

[Darth Ultron]

Acts of Sacrifice

G'Kar tries to get the Earth Alliance to help his people, while Ivanova plays diplomat to a new alien race.

This episode does mark the final appearance of Mary Kay Adams' Na'Toth. The character disappeared hereafter.

The Lumati-are a bit like the Federation in Star Trek where they ''won't help others'' (er, sometimes).


Things that Don't make Sense

Space Cam- So guess the Narn have a space cam watching the battle? And the Centari just ignore it? And the space cam then somehow gets or transmits the footage to Narn ISN?

Sure are a lot of places with spinning fans in this episode.

The Lumati- Isolate themselves from other ''inferior species'', but they never consider doing this to their own people?

Seal the deal with Sex- So, if the Lumati guy was not paired up with young sexy Ivanova, would they still want sex to seal the deal?

Interpecies Sex- Well, this is always a problem in Sci Fi, that species from different worlds can even have sex. The species would really, really, really need to be nearly identical in every way and not just ''humanoid''. And that is just for the physical act, as biology is a whole other bag of worms, as most species can't ''cross''. I don't think B5 even has ''Half-Narns'' or such.

Delayed Justice-Sheridan wants to delay everything about the murder and Narn murderer. Well, that is not really how justice works now is it? You can't just say ''Oh I don't like the feel of things right now, so we will just delay justice''. This is the sort of thing tyrants and police states do, and again makes you wonder if the Earth Alliance copied the Bill of Rights of the USA. It would not seem so, as then the ''right to a speedy trial'' would be in there. But I can see every other country in the world voting note to the USA Bill of rights....


Final-This episode has its moments, but it's clearly a transition episode, setting characters in slightly different directions and setting up events to come

[Cikomyr]

The bplot of Acts of Sacrifice is hilarious in my opinion. They are stand for the Federation, and the rather horrible moral implication of their prime directive it had devolved as. The idea of letting entire people die off without lending a hand just because they havent reached an arbitrary technological development level? Thats just evil.

But then claiming it is for their own good? Thats abuser-level of ******* rationalization.

"Oh, we cannot help these people be saved from a planet-wiping calamity. We dont know how badly we might impact their culture!!"

Yhea, this episode is basically looking at the dogmatic implementation of the PD that appeared in the TNG era, and piss all over it. And it deserved to. Too many Trekkies adopted it as a blanket statement of morality.

Doesnt mean the principles of the PD are wrong. Just their blind enforcement in a situation where ANYTHING would be better than "letting them die".

Also, best Ivanova scene. Claudia Christian is awesome.

[Cikomyr]

Seal the deal with Sex- So, if the Lumati guy was not paired up with young sexy Ivanova, would they still want sex to seal the deal?

JMS is adamant that YES. It the person assigned to negotiate with the Lumatis had been Sheridan, the Ambassador would still have requested sex with him.

Also, i think this cultural habit of sealing alliances with sex is.. actually 100% in character. The episode clearly established that the Lumati consider Genetic superiority to be their primary driving force. Not genetic purity, but superiority. So when you meet people you feel is genetically worthy of association, what is the logical course of action? Mingle genes.

[Darth Ultron]

Hunter, Prey

Sheridan rescues an doctor with crucial information concerning the late President's assassination.

Look who it is- Max the Dowbelow Thug is Richard Moll, who is 6'8'' and has been a lot of movies and TV shows, maybe most notably Nostradamus 'Bull' Shannon on Night Court.

''What do you want?"- Kosh does not like this question.

Things that Don't make Sense

*Ship Watching-So people just go to Bay 13 to watch the Vorlon ship? And Kosh is ok with this? And it's not some type of violation of ambassadorial protocol?

*The Seamless Ship-Well, Sheridan is all a wonder about a seamless ship with no way in or out...but it does not seem all that amazing that the ship has a ''hidden door''. Wow, what high tech that is...

*Ship zap ray- So Kosh's ship, um, zaps people that get too close. Well, a security system does make sense...but is the idea that the ship kills people that get too close?

*Singing Ship-Ok, it's kind, um, cool, that the ship sings to people in their sleep. Though wonder why Earth did not assign some sleepers to listen to the ship 24/7?

*Kosh the Spy- Well, guess everything above might make sense...if it's all a plot by Kosh in the first place.

*Super Doc Franklin? Er, so Doc Franklin gets a quick birthday message from Garibaldi, is confused for a moment and then is like ''play the message back frame by frame and pause it if something is found. So, how did he know to play it frame by frame?

*Ghost Garibaldi-Sigh, so again Garibaldi walks around like ''no one will recognize him''...lol.

*Downtown- LOL. Sure it's for laughs, but it's kinda odd to have a section of the station full of heavy machinery

*Snack Food-So Doc Franklin and Garibaldi eat Nature Valley fruit bars?

*Scan that Ship- Er, so sure Cranson is a bit crazy...but for him to say ''Scan the Vorlon's ship he won't know!''. Yea, right...

*The ships scan- Well, guess that super fancy Vorlon Technology can fake a scan...wow...amazing.

*Nap Time-So Kosh is all like ''you can use my ship, and I'll be taking a nap in my quarters"?

*Organic Technology- Er so the ship is ''conscious and aware'', can fly itself, fake scans and sings. Some how this is all given as ''organic tech'', though it does not seem like anything a normal ship could do. How is it so different from just a ship having Artificial Intelligence? The idea of Organic Tech is cool, but the Vorlon's ship really does not fit the bill.

Final-B, This episode demonstrates the twisted web that can be woven when conspiracies begin to form within Earth Force. For the first time since the change of command, we see every member of the command staff working as a team