Avengers: Infinity War

[Cheesegear]

Delusional? Sure...

That's the problem.
In the comics, Thanos had to murder a whole bunch of people, 'cause then he could get into Death's pants. There was a purpose to it.
In the movies, Thanos seems to be murdering a whole bunch of people, because he can, and his goal, is simply delusional, given his reasoning, and unlimited power. Given unlimited power, you choose to destroy half the universe? ...What are you, 14? Did you put any amount of thought into how unlimited power could be used for literally anything else, literally?

Which is the same problem that Ultron had. When your motivation doesn't make sense, you lose credibility, as a villain.
...Unless you're in a movie designed to sell toys to children, in which case nothing matters, and you can do whatever you want, no matter how stupid it is, because 'it's a movie designed to sell toys to children', so anything, is good enough.

[Cikomyr]

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Peter Parker's death cry really got to me. I was 60/40 regarding the new Spider Man, but oh god, hearing a kid cry he dont wanna die really did it.

[Ramza00]

That's the problem.
In the comics, Thanos had to murder a whole bunch of people, 'cause then he could get into Death's pants. There was a purpose to it.
In the movies, Thanos seems to be murdering a whole bunch of people, because he can, and his goal, is simply delusional, given his reasoning, and unlimited power. Given unlimited power, you choose to destroy half the universe? ...What are you, 14? Did you put any amount of thought into how unlimited power could be used for literally anything else, literally?

Which is the same problem that Ultron had. When your motivation doesn't make sense, you lose credibility, as a villain.
...Unless you're in a movie designed to sell toys to children, in which case nothing matters, and you can do whatever you want, no matter how stupid it is, because 'it's a movie designed to sell toys to children', so anything, is good enough.

Dr. Strange villian's the sorcerer Kaecilius actually makes sense. It is the same thing as Thanos (he hates pain and suffering thus he likes death for it stops pain and suffering, it is a mercy) but it actually makes sense in a way thinking everything that is deathless will stop pain. Of course it is wrong.

But yeah Thanos is just a bad version of the Illiad and the Illiad does a wonderful job of explaining the silliness of his logic. Harmony and Strife may cause pain but it also causes change and a new status quo that can be better than the old. Harmony and Strife are linked but also each other's counterpoints, and they work together to cause advancement like a crimson bow and arrow (see Greek Philosopher Hera****us who is heavily inspired / summarizes up Homer's Illiad, but also see Attack's on Titans first opening Guren no Yumiya / which means Crimson Bow and Arrow.).

[Psyren]

That's the problem.
In the comics, Thanos had to murder a whole bunch of people, 'cause then he could get into Death's pants. There was a purpose to it.
In the movies, Thanos seems to be murdering a whole bunch of people, because he can, and his goal, is simply delusional, given his reasoning, and unlimited power. Given unlimited power, you choose to destroy half the universe? ...What are you, 14? Did you put any amount of thought into how unlimited power could be used for literally anything else, literally?

Which is the same problem that Ultron had. When your motivation doesn't make sense, you lose credibility, as a villain.
...Unless you're in a movie designed to sell toys to children, in which case nothing matters, and you can do whatever you want, no matter how stupid it is, because 'it's a movie designed to sell toys to children', so anything, is good enough.

Wait... you thought "I'm doing this because I really want to bang a concept" was better writing?

I for one am glad they jettisoned all the ridiculously cheesy "getting into Death's pants" parts of his character. About the only thing they slipped up on was explaining why

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using the gauntlet to provide a galactic cornucopia

wouldn't have worked, but that's a blank I can easily fill in myself anyway.

Also, thinking of Tony and Peter's suits here I think we have answered the question of who is better at making supersuits between Tony and Shuri, and it's Tony. That Mark whatever he's using here is hax. Though it seems he hasn't been upgrading Warmachine as much.
[/spoiler]

I don't think that's been settled at all:

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Sure Tony's been innovating more, but that's because he's been fretting over intergalactic threats like Thanos since A1. Shuri's biggest concerns meanwhile have been a few rival tribes and helping her brother chase down a smuggler. Necessity is the mother of invention, and Tony's had more necessity. The fact that she near-instantly thought of a better way to make Vision than Tony AND Bruce came up with suggests she'll come up with marvels (heh) of her own too.

1. Disney wants to make Marvel movies (and sell toys) until we're all dead.
2. The McGuffin that they're fighting over, literally has the power to undo reality.

I find it really hard to care about what happened in Part 1, since I know pretty much everything will be undone in Part 2.

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1) Journey, not destination. The entertaining part isn't what we know will happen, it's seeing how the MCU gets there (especially for those who know the specific way things went down in the comics.)

2) Given that they can (and probably will - eventually) just reboot the whole thing at some point anyway, setting it all really actually on fire is not an impossibility.

3) Unlike the comics, they don't have to worry too much about status quo here. Some of the sacrifices/deaths could indeed be permanent, gauntlet or no gauntlet. Remember, there's a lot of the verse they haven't tapped, and even among the bankable main line a lot of these characters have multiple incarnations. Killing off, say, Steve Rogers doesn't mean no more Captain America movies or toys to sell after all.

[ATHATH]

An interesting article about the possibilities for Avengers 4 that I found (contains spoilers for Infinity War): http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/avenger...-up-the-sequel

[LaZodiac]

They did explain why Thanos couldn't use the gauntlet to just give everyone infinite resources. It's in him explaining why he MUST do the genocide plan. He believes himself to be the only person who sees this as the sensible outcome. In effect, Thanos cannot use the gauntlet that way, because "he would not" use the gauntlet that way. That's just not how he thinks. That's what makes him the villain, in a sense.

[ATHATH]

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Peter Parker's death cry really got to me. I was 60/40 regarding the new Spider Man, but oh god, hearing a kid cry he dont wanna die really did it.

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This. This so god!@#$ much (even though I was pretty sure that they were gonna retcon it later). Well, except for the 60/40 part; I like him.

[Ramza00]

So if you were to describe Tony and Shuri not as a technology experts but as magic or psionic users which domains would there magic mostly consist of? Aka things like Transmutation, Conjuration, Psycho-metabolism, etc?

[LaZodiac]

So if you were to describe Tony and Shuri not as a technology experts but as magic or psionic users which domains would there magic mostly consist of? Aka things like Transmutation, Conjuration, Psycho-metabolism, etc?

Honestly given how Shuri's tech works it seems one step removed from Strange's magic, so I'd say it's just straight up whatever they call that. Tony's is more general transmutation though.

[Darth Ultron]

They did explain why Thanos couldn't use the gauntlet to just give everyone infinite resources. It's in him explaining why he MUST do the genocide plan. He believes himself to be the only person who sees this as the sensible outcome. In effect, Thanos cannot use the gauntlet that way, because "he would not" use the gauntlet that way. That's just not how he thinks. That's what makes him the villain, in a sense.

Not in the movie that I recall. The comics had the more Cosmic Imbalance: there was too much life in the universe. The idea that life and death should be equal at about 50/50, but that life and good have been pushing that number. It's a bit of a metaplot as it makes the comment on comics as characters that ''die'' always seem to come back alive.

Well, I liked the movie a lot...and I have been a Thantos fan for years. I do wish we could have gotten more Thantos in the movie, you know, like maybe a couple minutes of MCU backstory. Like put the Titan stuff and Girl Gammora at the start of the movie, and give us a knowledge/reminder. Like have a seen where Thantos and Teen Girl Gammora are fighting some space mooks.....to get to the Infinity Well. Then Thantos learns about the Infinity Gems, and also informs/reminds the audience....and end it with Thantos looking at the camera to say something like ''there is too much life, I will do something about that."

But the movie just seems to assume everyone watching is a hard core fan....

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The movie mixes Andromeda, where the Guardians of the Galaxy are...and the Milky Way...very fast, like they are ''next door'' or something.

The heroes don't really have a reason to ''stop Thantos'', other then they are in the movie Infinity War. Only like Gammora, Nebula and Drax have even a slight connection it him. Everyone just kind of does it, mostly the heroes from Earth.

The ''civil war'' sure ended quick...for no reason. And it's not like the planet was going to blow up or something...

The fights are all a bit off. But then the movie has the huge power problem: Thantos and his goons are way more powerful then most of the heroes. Like Thor or Iron Man can take a cosmic punch or blast, but the rest can't. So it's odd to see like Black Widow get hit with a cosmic zap of like ''five pounds'' just enough to knock her down and mess up her hair. Why not crank up the power? Just a couple hundred more pounds and you can break bones in her body, for example. It is the same problem Roanan had in the first Guardians movie...he zaps them with the ''gentile knock down force''. And it's really odd when a blast or punch like destroys a metal object or even a stone wall....then the blast/punch that hits the hero is a ''love tap' one.

Why does Wakanda have the silly Gungun force field? What is the point of a force field people...or monsters...can walk through?

[Devonix]

I usually love the marvel movies but this one... It just didn't do anything I didn't feel anything for it. The camera work was shoddy and jumping all over the place. Too many fight scenes in dark train stations or dark ships with muted colors.

But the biggest problem for me were the stakes. As in there weren't any and I could feel it more than I felt it in any other marvel movie.

[Cikomyr]

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The movie mixes Andromeda, where the Guardians of the Galaxy are...and the Milky Way...very fast, like they are ''next door'' or something.

The heroes don't really have a reason to ''stop Thantos'', other then they are in the movie Infinity War. Only like Gammora, Nebula and Drax have even a slight connection it him. Everyone just kind of does it, mostly the heroes from Earth.

The ''civil war'' sure ended quick...for no reason. And it's not like the planet was going to blow up or something...

The fights are all a bit off. But then the movie has the huge power problem: Thantos and his goons are way more powerful then most of the heroes. Like Thor or Iron Man can take a cosmic punch or blast, but the rest can't. So it's odd to see like Black Widow get hit with a cosmic zap of like ''five pounds'' just enough to knock her down and mess up her hair. Why not crank up the power? Just a couple hundred more pounds and you can break bones in her body, for example. It is the same problem Roanan had in the first Guardians movie...he zaps them with the ''gentile knock down force''. And it's really odd when a blast or punch like destroys a metal object or even a stone wall....then the blast/punch that hits the hero is a ''love tap' one.

Why does Wakanda have the silly Gungun force field? What is the point of a force field people...or monsters...can walk through?

You know, if you watched the movie you would get the answers to the things that bug you.

[Cheesegear]

He believes himself to be the only person who sees this as the sensible outcome.

I'm the only one who can do the thing...Using a thing that can literally be used by anyone.
The things you can do, are limited only by the scope of your imagination. The thing you decide on is killing everyone.

Congratulations. Your villain is 14 years old.

[LaZodiac]

I'm the only one who can do the thing...Using a thing that can literally be used by anyone.
The things you can do, are limited only by the scope of your imagination. The thing you decide on is killing everyone.

Congratulations. Your villain is 14 years old.

We don't know if the Infinity Gauntlet can be used by everyone. We know Starlord was only able to use one gem because he has a bunch of friends and god dna in him, after all. Thanos being able to use all the stones without dying is actually impressive.

He's not 14 years old, he's ideologically set in stone. He see's his solution (cull half of the universe) as the perfect plan, and whenever he mentions it to people they tend to react poorly so he's gotten the mindset of really only HE is good enough to see what he's doing as right. This is entirely fair a characterization. It makes Thanos a monster, set in his ways, but it's not "stupid". It's the way that some people get so caught up in the solution they came up with that they don't stop to consider other options, an entirely valid thing that happens all the time.

[Devonix]

I'm the only one who can do the thing...Using a thing that can literally be used by anyone.
The things you can do, are limited only by the scope of your imagination. The thing you decide on is killing everyone.

Congratulations. Your villain is 14 years old.

It is a rather stupid plan. In the comics the plan made sense because it wasn't a plan there was no goal behind it other than Impress a girl. For that it makes perfect sense. But for someone to think it has any worth as a real plan makes the guy look like an idiot.

[Cheesegear]

We don't know if the Infinity Gauntlet can be used by everyone.

The Infinity Gauntlet merely provides someone with the protection to use all the Stones at the same time. Theoretically anyone could wear it.
However, movie-logic, as opposed to comics-logic, means that the Gauntlet is probably arbitrarily different to make Thanos more credible.

He's not 14 years old, he's ideologically set in stone.

Did you not understand my point?

so he's gotten the mindset of really only HE is good enough to see what he's doing as right.

"Everyone is stupid except me."
No, you don't get it, he's not 14, right?

It makes Thanos a monster, set in his ways, but it's not "stupid".

It makes him uncreative and extremely short-sighted. I think 'stupid' comes fairly close to apt.

It's the way that some people get so caught up in the solution they came up with that they don't stop to consider other options, an entirely valid thing that happens all the time.

Resources vs. Population is a real-world argument, that scientists IRL, are having right now. I'll give you a hint; Culling half the population isn't a solution even on the table. I wont go into what solutions are on the table, because that's real-world stuff.

Suffice to say, that Thanos has the mind-set of a 14 year-old. The Infinity Gauntlet can terraform planets.
He cried during the scene with Gamora. That's fine. An excellent moment of characterisation.
But, his characterisation as a villain, as the antagonist is stupid.

[Devonix]

There's also how even with the gauntlet. His plan makes no gosh darn sense. Ok his whole deal is about there being a problem with resources. Alright that's something I can get behind. But then he jumps to wiping out half the population of the universe. Umm. How does that solve anything?

What about planets and places where there are an over abundance of resources?

What about places where there is a small population and culling half the number dooms the populous to extinction?

What's the exact number that's sustainable but not threatening?

What about places where they are stable, which means that they get back to a high population again. Are you gonna wipe them out again?

The problem is compounded by him saying that when he gets rid of half the universe he'd stop. Umm No, if you believe in your heart of hearts that this is the way to keep the universe safe and you're willing to kill untold trillions to do it. You'd also know that the only way something like this works is if it's a repeatable cycle. You'd have to do a constant culling of the universal population for it to make any lick of sense. Not only that you'd need to take a census to see that the population hasn't gone past your arbitrary. 1/2

Why Half and not 1/4 or 2/3? Why? Because that's what they did in the comics, but the problem is they took the comic action but with a motivation that doesn't match it.

[Cikomyr]

Half is arbitrary, that's for sure. Its clear he hasnt put much thought in calculating the required number. Its probably just easier for him, before he had the Gauntlet, to manually massacre half of a population than start dividing in 3rds

[Devonix]

Half is arbitrary, that's for sure. Its clear he hasnt put much thought in calculating the required number. Its probably just easier for him, before he had the Gauntlet, to manually massacre half of a population than start dividing in 3rds

It's just really weird. Half. ok half of what? So somewhere that has a population of 1million gets cut to 500k And a place that has just as many resources but only had a population of 10thousand gets cut to 5thousand? What kind of stupid sense does that make?

[LaZodiac]

Look man, I've seen a lot of adults have that same mentality. It doesn't make him 14.

Also, at no point did I not say his plan isn't obviously flawed and stupid. All I'm saying is that it makes sense in character for him to not catch on the fact that there are other, better solutions. It's all an ego trip for him. Same with the dating Death thing in the comics, he is ultimately a person who believed he is unworthy of the actual importance of his goals and self sabotaged in ways he cannot realize because it's on a subconcious level. He cannot see the correct solution to his desires because it's not actually about solving the problem, it's about saying he did and agrandizing himself in the doing so.

[Devonix]

Look man, I've seen a lot of adults have that same mentality. It doesn't make him 14.

Also, at no point did I not say his plan isn't obviously flawed and stupid. All I'm saying is that it makes sense in character for him to not catch on the fact that there are other, better solutions. It's all an ego trip for him. Same with the dating Death thing in the comics, he is ultimately a person who believed he is unworthy of the actual importance of his goals and self sabotaged in ways he cannot realize because it's on a subconcious level. He cannot see the correct solution to his desires because it's not actually about solving the problem, it's about saying he did and agrandizing himself in the doing so.

I'm saying that this person has different motivations than the comics. So he should take different actions than the comics. The Finger snap half of the universe gone doesn't seem to fit this version of the character and they should have removed it.

[Cheesegear]

What about planets and places where there are an over abundance of resources?

What about how the Infinity Gauntlet can do anything? Including terraforming.

What about places where there is a small population and culling half the number dooms the populous to extinction?

Something about the gene-pool, something about average IQ in a population.
Something about how certain individuals in any population - especially those at the top of whatever social structure is in place - and how random removal of said certain individuals causes society to collapse.

What's the exact number that's sustainable but not threatening?

Imagine if you had, like, something like a Time Stone, that could allow you to travel back in time to any population limit you decide.
What if you didn't just kill everyone? But enacted future population control?
Why is killing first on the table?

What about places where they are stable, which means that they get back to a high population again. Are you gonna wipe them out again?

Terraforming. Genetic engineering.
Do literally anything.

With unlimited power...Just kill people, I guess.

[Cikomyr]

It's just really weird. Half. ok half of what? So somewhere that has a population of 1million gets cut to 500k And a place that has just as many resources but only had a population of 10thousand gets cut to 5thousand? What kind of stupid sense does that make?

Look. There is some things to be said about the positives that comes out of culling large portions of the population. I have seen some analysis that points out that the absurdly large death toll of the Black Death in the Dark Age led to a labor shortage, enhancing the value of labor in the economy, leading to some rather impressive societal improvement when peasants started having more income and more rights.

That does not make "culling half the population" a good act. But its not as baseless as you think it might be.

[-D-]

Wait... you thought "I'm doing this because I really want to bang a concept" was better writing?

Yes. He was called Thanos, the Mad Titan. Because he was quite literally, mad. If I recall correctly, this was a guy that was given true immortality as a punishment. Imagine punishing Red Skull or Dr. Doom in the same manner.

Instead we got Thanos The Blind Idiot Titan. His solution is A) needlessly destructive and B) not in any shape permanent.

[Devonix]

What about how the Infinity Gauntlet can do anything? Including terraforming.



Something about the gene-pool, something about average IQ in a population.
Something about how certain individuals in any population - especially those at the top of whatever social structure is in place - and how random removal of said certain individuals causes society to collapse.



Imagine if you had, like, something like a Time Stone, that could allow you to travel back in time to any population limit you decide.
What if you didn't just kill everyone? But enacted future population control?
Why is killing first on the table?



Terraforming. Genetic engineering.
Do literally anything.

With unlimited power...Just kill people, I guess.

Exactly. Killing makes no sense because it in no way helps him to achieve his goals. It's not just a poor solution, it's actively worse and stupider than a million other things he could do.

[thorgrim29]

I don't think that's been settled at all:

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Sure Tony's been innovating more, but that's because he's been fretting over intergalactic threats like Thanos since A1. Shuri's biggest concerns meanwhile have been a few rival tribes and helping her brother chase down a smuggler. Necessity is the mother of invention, and Tony's had more necessity. The fact that she near-instantly thought of a better way to make Vision than Tony AND Bruce came up with suggests she'll come up with marvels (heh) of her own too.

[/SPOILER]

I say let Tony have his thing. He's basically the world's best engineer and does power generation and weapon systems, (also AI but JARVIS might have been a fluke since Friday doesn't seem to be actually self-aware). He's smart enough to be good at other super-sciency things (see Avengers 1) but they're not his Thing.

Shuri does pretty much everything but self-aware AI, from mining equipment to brain surgery. Besides, Wakanda has spies everywhere and a network of satellites (therefore apparently stealth rockets unless they launched all of those since Black Panther, either that or they're secretly funding Marvel's version of Space X) so they should have been as concerned with cosmic threats as Tony is. To be fair to Shuri she is limited by their weird attachment to fighting like pre-industrial warriors with nice gadgets (a bit like the Asgardians) though, I'm guessing T'Challa wouldn't want blasters on his suit even if she could put them there. Seriously T'Challa, your army looks very cool but it's not optimized at all.

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Where are Valkyrie and Nakia? And where are the war rhinos? Did they have to put them down since only W'Kabi could control them and he's apparently been executed or at least jailed between movies?

[Dragonus45]

Considering his major concern is entropy I imagine that not even the stones can really stop the long term problem he is worried about.

[Devonix]

Psyren it's not that wanting to bang death is a better end goal for Thanos. It's that every action he made to achieve that goal made some deal of sense.

Thanos' goal here is interesting, but unfortunately the steps he takes to achieve that goal don't match his new goal.

They took the old action, and just crossed out the words Bang Death, with Balance the universe. And they don't fit.

[Cheesegear]

They took the old action, and just crossed out the words Bang Death, with Balance the universe. And they don't fit.

The difference is that 'I want to bang Death', only had one solution. Death needs some sort of balance to the 'verse, which explicitly involves killing people.
It is the only option on the table, because it is the only acceptable solution.

'Balance resources vs. population' has so many possible solutions, especially when the person deciding, has - theoretically - unlimited power.

[Talakeal]

I think they could have kept the concept of bringing balance to the universe without the whole "banging death" thing.

For Thanos he wasnt just in love with Death, he also worshipped her as a goddes and founded numerous religions in her name.

I really think they should have kept the death worshipper aspect of it and turned his quest into a holy crusade rather than something that is purely pragmatic, secular, and (il)logical.