OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread

[Rrmcklin]

I doubt she'll die (or, at least, die without being rezzed), not the least of it because it would condemn Kudzu to the same issue Durkon faced as a child, and it has already been described as something terribly unfair to him.

I actually do think the Giant agrees with this sentiment, though I don't in this situation. Durkon lost out on having a good (in both the lower and capital senses of the word) parent, which... would not be the case for Hilgya being removed from Kudzu's life.

[Dion]

Hilgya going to Hel would be viewed as tacit or clear endorsement of the narrative that Hilgya deserves punishment for bankrupting a sex trafficking ring - .

By who? Who, specifically, would view it that way? Would you view it that way? Or are you having an argument against imaginary people that you imagine might view it that way if it were to happen?

It just seems like you’re inventing people to argue with here.

[The_Weirdo]

Ok. Hilgya has the right to marry the person of her choice.

Hilgya does not have the right to attempted murder or to bankrupt her family.

I agree with you that we should not conflate the two things. Let’s agree to never discuss them together in the same post again.

Well, I'd love to, but Grey Wolf had other ideas there, now, innit?

As for the bankrupting of her family, sure she did. Her family became her property the moment it decided she was its property.

[Throknor]

It is not absurd if she's the first one to come up with the loophole. It is not absurd if Loki has never said, taught or promised that this is a loophole that exists. It is not absurd, in short, if this is an assumption of Hilgya consistent with all her assumptions of how the universe works, going all the way back to "polite offers of foot massages are an attack on her freedom".

Grey Wolf

I think part of this discussion is whether Hilgya's actions would earn her an automatic reprieve from Hel or if not whether Loki would defend her soul. Apologies if not, as I'm going to springboard into a different thought trail along those lines.

We have it directly from Thor that it is in a god's interests to want a soul after death beyond simple living worship. We have the idea from Redcloak that a displeased deity might not grant spells to clerics. Ergo, by granting spells to Hilgya Loki has been implicitly endorsing her ideas.

Let me repeat the word "implicitly". As an evil god he might take her living worship and not care at all about her soul after death so she might still be wrong. I guess I just think that if she is deluding herself the fact that Loki answers her prayers for spells and (eventually) Durkon's location at least gives her the same basis Durkon had for thinking Thor was blessing the Order's meeting with Miko.

[Rrmcklin]

Hilgya may or may not be the first one to have thought of this loophole, but that actually says nothing about its legitimacy.

I'm also doubtful of the claim "if she was wrong, the story would have already said so". The claim exists to inform us more about Hilgya's worldview and motivations, it doesn't need to be validate to that, she just needs to think it is.

Loki not explicitly commenting on it one way or the other doesn't tell us anything either; neither he nor Hel cares right now.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think part of this discussion is whether Hilgya's actions would earn her an automatic reprieve from Hel or if not whether Loki would defend her soul. Apologies if not, as I'm going to springboard into a different thought trail along those lines.

We have it directly from Thor that it is in a god's interests to want a soul after death beyond simple living worship. We have the idea from Redcloak that a displeased deity might not grant spells to clerics. Ergo, by granting spells to Hilgya Loki has been implicitly endorsing her ideas.

Let me repeat the word "implicitly". As an evil god he might take her living worship and not care at all about her soul after death so she might still be wrong. I guess I just think that if she is deluding herself the fact that Loki answers her prayers for spells and (eventually) Durkon's location at least gives her the same basis Durkon had for thinking Thor was blessing the Order's meeting with Miko.

We have proof in this very comic of what Loki thinks of saving a few of his followers' souls: not worth the time it'd take to swindle them out of Hel's grasp.

Hilgya is an entertaining little bugger, and he is proud of how she puts her own wants above the needs of those around her - and even his, Loki's, needs! - (more proud than he is mad that she bailed, at any rate), and thus he will continue to empower her to keep murdering Thor priests over inappropriate marriage proposals.

But it is a far cry from that to say that the loophole is Loki's teaching or that it will work. She's an agent of chaos, right or wrong, and that is likely enough for Loki to continue to grant her spells, even if in the end, he won't lift a finger to rescue her from Hel.

Grey Wolf

[The_Weirdo]

I actually do think the Giant agrees with this sentiment, though I don't in this situation. Durkon lost out on having a good (in both the lower and capital senses of the word) parent, which... would not be the case for Hilgya being removed from Kudzu's life.

Maybe, but we should hold off discussing death of the author until that particular issue gets resolved one way or another, yes?

[Verappo]

There's also no proof that the loophole is right, and given that it's supposedly a loophole, that's not a promising look.

On a Watsonian level I agree with you there. But my concern is, if that's the direction the story was going, why not make it clear from the get go? Elan could have easily ended with a punchline like "nice! that sure doesn't seem like an easy rationalisation from an unreliable source", but instead they made him agree that the system was unfair.

Given how unlikely Hilgya is to be killed in-comic, that would be a weird thing to just mention like "Don't worry guys, she'll get hers" and not estabilish it right away. Instead what we got from the god himself so far was pride and aknowledgement. And I mean, since he came up with the bet I have no doubt he'd be shifty enough to come up with the loophole so he is the one god exempt from this (not that we know of other gods with loopholes, but i'm going off what we have).

[Gnoman]

On a Watsonian level I agree with you there. But my concern is, if that's the direction the story was going, why not make it clear from the get go? Elan could have easily ended with a punchline like "nice! that sure doesn't seem like an easy rationalisation from an unreliable source", but instead they made him agree that the system was unfair.

Given how unlikely Hilgya is to be killed in-comic, that would be a weird thing to just mention like "Don't worry guys, she'll get hers" and not estabilish it right away. Instead what we got from the god himself so far was pride and aknowledgement. And I mean, since he came up with the bet I have no doubt he'd be shifty enough to come up with the loophole so he is the one god exempt from this (not that we know of other gods with loopholes, but i'm going off what we have).

The Doylist reason for including that is probably to give insight into Hilgya's insane worldview, without explicitly explaining that she really is just deluded. Deluded lunatics only work as characters when there is room to doubt their lunacy.

[Personification]

Who says he cant have a place in both? He lives in Pandemonium, but the North Pantheon always keeps his bedroom clean for him in Valhalla for whenever he feels like coming by to visit, say hi to Mom, etc...

And then he stays about a week longer than he's welcome, until eventually Thor has to kick him out since he has a perfectly nice home of his own already, and he never helps out with the chores, and he leaves crumbs all over Odin's nice chair.

Loading headcanon, you may fore when ready...

[The_Weirdo]

We have no evidence of whether or not the loophole works - and the most likely way for Hilgya to die at this point is in combat, which would render the issue moot.

Believing her to be right or wrong on that particular issue is very much wishful thinking; the people that dislike her are hoping for something to be contrived to kill her dishonorably and for her to be wrong and the people that like her are hoping that she stays alive and that she lives to a ripe old age and ends up going to Loki's place when she dies off-comic, having turned out to be right.

I still think this is moot, because I very much doubt she'll die, honorably or otherwise.

[The MunchKING]

A thousand years' worth of dwarven souls that would have trivially belonged to Loki had he but told them of the loophole on day 1 suggests otherwise.

Grey Wolf

Except how many of them WANT to be chaotic tricksters? Most of the ones we've seen die in not-honorable ways seemed to be living their lives as normal people. The mining dwarves were just mining, one of the two he talked about in the last strip just got a disease and died. I mean even according to Hylgia Loki wasn't just saying "get out of Hel free", it was "behave in the way I would approve of and I will argue that was honorable".

Her family became her property the moment it decided she was its property.

What was that saying from Granny Weatherwax about treating people as things being the root of all evil?

[Personification]

What was that saying from Granny Weatherwax about treating people as things being the root of all evil?

Here:

Sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.

In response to T_W I will also add this as an overly generous allowance for Hilgya's alignment:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...fightsMonsters

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Except how many of them WANT to be chaotic tricksters?

How many "want" to be ultra-honorable beings? Rich has told us that the dwarves are like they are because of the bet - that when Thor told them about the honorable death conditional, they became a society where they are honorable as much of the time as possible, because that's the "loophole" they know of to get out of Hel. If Loki knew of a second loophole involving worshiping him and then claiming that, no matter the manner of death, it was either honorable in itself, or a honorable following of Loki's teaching to be dishonorable, why would they choose the more likely to fail "live honorably and hope for a honorable death" if Loki's "it's honorable to be dishonorable" would work far more reliably?

That's aside of the inherent contradiction implicit in the assertion "a dishonorable death is a honorable following of Loki's 'it's ok to be dishonorable" path". Honestly, the 'logic' is so Hilgya-like that it sets of alarm bells immediately.

I mean even according to Hylgia Loki wasn't just saying "get out of Hel free", it was "behave in the way I would approve of and I will argue that was honorable".

Even if that is the case - and I'm not reading it at all like that - fat lot of good that made for the few Loki worshipers dead over the last century.

Grey Wolf

[D.One]

In response to T_W I will also add this as an overly generous allowance for Hilgya's alignment:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...fightsMonsters

That entry should have "for example, Hylgia" after each phrase.

That said, I don't wish for her to die and go to Hel. I'd rather her listening from Loki that "You see, this loophole thing you've been talking about, I don't know why you think that, but it's a good joke. It doesn't work that way, but it's a good joike". Also, for her to remain alive and be judged and punished by her crimes. Death would be just another escape for someone too used to avoid assuming responsibility for her own acts.

[The MunchKING]

it was either honorable in itself, or a honorable following of Loki's teaching to be dishonorable, why would they choose the more likely to fail "live honorably and hope for a honorable death" if Loki's "it's honorable to be dishonorable" would work far more reliably?

Because it's not just ANY dishonor, it's cheating/revenge kills/whatever else Loki approves of, is my reading. You can't just coast on "Hail Loki"s, you have to go out and be actively chaotic and maybe evil. I'm guessing most diseases (except maybe STDs from weird monsters, that silly Loki) still count as dishonorable for starters.

Also, Thor's a good guy and has a system that benefits Dwarves as a whole, so on a societal level it's more likely to catch on than the more individualist Loki.

Even if that is the case - and I'm not reading it at all like that - fat lot of good that made for the few Loki worshipers dead over the last century.

You seem to assume the few he didn't make a point of fighting for in this strip were all he's gotten in the last century. I was assuming that like Thor there were some he just didn't think he could argue for, and he already got everyone of his worshippers he could claim died 'honorably' by his precepts.

Which admittedly probably wasn't THAT many relative to Thor or Odin, but I assumed he did rules-lawyering on the side like we've seen Thor do.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because it's not just ANY dishonor, it's cheating/revenge kills/whatever else Loki approves of, is my reading. You can't just coast on "Hail Loki"s, you have to go out and be actively chaotic and maybe evil. I'm guessing most diseases (except maybe STDs from weird monsters, that silly Loki) still count as dishonorable for starters.

That's not how Hilgya describes it. At this point, that is your headcanon. She says, and I quote

"If I live my life however I choose, breaking rules and ignoring any stuffy old traditions and then I die with dishonor...
... Well, I was just following the path my god had laid for me! Nothing more honorable for a cleric than living your god's truth, right?"

First, note the fundamental mistake that is so common in the forums: she centers her logic in what happens in her life, not at the moment of her death. Second, no mention of exceptions for disease. To hear her tell, her loophole allows her to ignore the manner of her death, and base her defence on the manner of her life. But we know that is not how it works at all.

Also, Thor's a good guy and has a system that benefits Dwarves as a whole, so on a societal level it's more likely to catch on than the more individualist Loki.

Gresky city is run as a Loki distopia. No reason the dwarves couldn't have run their society in a similar manner.

You seem to assume the few he didn't make a point of fighting for in this strip were all he's gotten in the last century. I was assuming that like Thor there were some he just didn't think he could argue for, and he already got everyone of his worshippers he could claim died 'honorably' by his precepts.

No, I am not assuming anything of the sort. I am pointing out that Hilgya's loophole of "if you follow Loki, you can't have a dishonorable death, because a dishonorable life is an honorable following of Loki's path" is highly suspect logic, since he won't use it as an argument even when Hel is in a position to give him any souls he asks for if it means getting rid of him.

I am simply not going to give the CE god or the delusional dwarf the benefit of the doubt. I'll believe that the loophole works when I see it work, and not a moment sooner, and therefore reject any argument that starts with the assumption that Loki taught Hilgya the loophole, rather than what I consider the far more likely scenario that she came up with it to justify doing what she wants, just as she has come up with other BS post-hoc justifications for everything that she does.

Grey Wolf

[The_Weirdo]

That entry should have "for example, Hylgia" after each phrase.

That said, I don't wish for her to die and go to Hel. I'd rather her listennig from Loki that "You see, this loophole thing you've been talking about, I don't know why you think that, but it's a good joke. It doesn't work that way, but it's a good joike". Also, for her to remain alive and be judged and punished by her crimes. Death would be just another escape for someone too used to avoid assuming responsibility for her own acts.

So, you don't want only to see her punished for bankrupting a sex trafficking ring, you want to see her forced to spend the remainder of her life followingu an unjust system, because of... Because of what, again?

[zimmerwald1915]

Gresky city is run as a Loki distopia.

Loki might or might not approve of Greysky City's specific social setup. What is fairly clear from the dialogue, however, is that the Church of Loki answers to the Thieves' Guild, and not the other way around. The Thieves' Guild, not the Church of Loki, is the predominant temporal power in Greysky City.

[The MunchKING]

That's not how Hilgya describes it. At this point, that is your headcanon. She says, and I quote

"If I live my life however I choose, breaking rules and ignoring any stuffy old traditions and then I die with dishonor...
... Well, I was just following the path my god had laid for me! Nothing more honorable for a cleric than living your god's truth, right?"

First, note the fundamental mistake that is so common in the forums: she centers her logic in what happens in her life, not at the moment of her death. Second, no mention of exceptions for disease. To hear her tell, her loophole allows her to ignore the manner of her death, and base her defence on the manner of her life. But we know that is not how it works at all.

Well I was extrapolating from "Nothing more Honorable than living your God's Truth" that it had to be Loki's ideology to get him to argue for you. And from that when I was trying to explain about how I didn't think it was a blanket immunity to dishonor, but rather a license for Chaos over Order, I came up with the diseases would still be dishonorable thing. The STD thing was just a joke because in all the versions of Loki I know of he's the dad of Slepnir, Fenir, Hel, and the World Serpent.

Gresky city is run as a Loki distopia. No reason the dwarves couldn't have run their society in a similar manner.

And it's not very stable OR well run. So stable, well-meaning dwarves would prefer the Thor way.

No, I am not assuming anything of the sort. I am pointing out that Hilgya's loophole of "if you follow Loki, you can't have a dishonorable death, because a dishonorable life is an honorable following of Loki's path" is highly suspect logic, since he won't use it as an argument even when Hel is in a position to give him any souls he asks for if it means getting rid of him.

Well that's why I think it's not just "there is no dishonor if you follow Loki" and more "Loki's way is honorable if you follow Loki". SO those guys still died in a way he found dishonorable, but he was willing to not-argue over them if being straight forward achieves his goals more easily.

[Squire Doodad]

First, note the fundamental mistake that is so common in the forums: she centers her logic in what happens in her life, not at the moment of her death. Second, no mention of exceptions for disease. To hear her tell, her loophole allows her to ignore the manner of her death, and base her defence on the manner of her life. But we know that is not how it works at all.

Grey Wolf

I think Hilgya is still vulnerable to dishonorable death via disease, but odds are Loki does give her a small bit of leeway. As in, if she dies in her sleep because someone stabbed her because she cheated them, then she died as a direct result of her following her god's holy path, and thus Hilgya died by "honorable" means. Hilgya is almost definitely highly exaggerating the...ah...coverage Loki provides against dishonorable death.

[The MunchKING]

Loki might or might not approve of Greysky City's specific social setup. What is fairly clear from the dialogue, however, is that the Church of Loki answers to the Thieves' Guild, and not the other way around. The Thieves' Guild, not the Church of Loki, is the predominant temporal power in Greysky City.

According to Hailey's comments about the ridiculous levels of Mark-up the Loki guys are charging the Thieves' Guild, it may be they follow the money rather than the guild for any loyalty to it. And if some guy gets his eyes regenerated and the gets then ripped out again by the guild, HEY! They can just double bill the guy.

[Squire Doodad]

According to Hailey's comments about the ridiculous levels of Mark-up the Loki guys are charging the Thieves' Guild, it may be they follow the money rather than the guild for any loyalty to it. And if some guy gets his eyes regenerated and the gets then ripped out again by the guild, HEY! They can just double bill the guy.

Loki's church does huge markup rates because its what little power they have due to the lack of other organized friendly religions. They're in it for the money and get a good enough deal, but don't actually have any serious power.

[Kantaki]

So, you don't want only to see her punished for bankrupting a sex trafficking ring, you want to see her forced to spend the remainder of her life followingu an unjust system, because of... Because of what, again?

Look, no one is arguing that Hilgya was wrong for wanting revenge for being married off.
That would be fine had she limited herself to those responsible.
The Clan Heads and Elders, her parents- those in charge, who made the decision.
That she didn't, that she decided to harm innocents, probably other victims, in her revenge is where the problem lies.
And yes, it is her fault. It was her decision after all.

As for being punished for dying dishonourable?
Tough luck.
That applies to all dwarves.
And yes, it is absolutely unfair.
But the alternative- Thor giving up the bet -i probably worse.
Loki knows what the stakes are.
Literally. He set it up.

But guess what? I've got a solution.
Don't die a honourless death as a dwarf.
Either die with honour or don't be a lawnornament when it happens.
„I'm not a dwarf anymore” seems like a better argument than „I followed Loki's example”.

[Squire Doodad]

But guess what? I've got a solution.
Don't die a honourless death as a dwarf.
Either die with honour or don't be a lawnornament when it happens.
„I'm not a dwarf anymore” seems like a better argument than „I followed Loki's example”.

That's tantamount to telling someone who is horrifically depressed "stop feeling sad" to fix their depression. That is a horrendous answer, and just saying "the dwarves have a raw deal but that's nothing to do with Hilgya so its irrelevant" is better than saying "they should fulfill the end condition to fix the fact that they have to deal with their end condition".

[Kantaki]

That's tantamount to telling someone who is horrifically depressed "stop feeling sad" to fix their depression. That is a horrendous answer, and just saying "the dwarves have a raw deal but that's nothing to do with Hilgya so its irrelevant" is better than saying "they should fulfill the end condition to fix the fact that they have to deal with their end condition".

I mean, it's a D&D world. Polymorph and stuff is a thing.
You don't wanna deal with the honour thing?
Turn into a elf or whatever.
I might have been a bit flippant in how I phrased it, but as a solution it is at least as valid as Hilgya‘s.
Possibly more so.
At least you have a argument why the rules shouldn't apply.

Mind you, I have no idea if it would work, but even if it doesn't the image is kinda hilarious.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's tantamount to telling someone who is horrifically depressed "stop feeling sad" to fix their depression.

No it isn't, because rather than being an individual, medicalized condition (that can probably be treated with some success in a D&D world), the dwarves' problem is a collective, political one. They are subject to the whims of the gods, and as a society have more or less chosen to get the best deal for themselves within the framework of those whims. There are other options open, however, including a devotion strike against Thor (who might be more amenable to rethinking the Bet now that he has skin in the game), or simply leveling up a few powerful adventurers and murdering Hel. Presumably the Bet does not survive her.

[LadyEowyn]

I’m designating both Loki and Hilgya as Chaotic Entertaining.

This strip was awesome. I love Loki being actually pleased/proud that one of his clerics is following his precepts by putting their own interests above his.

[zimmerwald1915]

I’m designating both Loki and Hilgya as Chaotic Entertaining.

What about ?

[brian 333]

We assume the idealized society we aspire to is the absolute best condition possible, ignoring the many who, for a multitude of reasons, fall through the cracks. Then, armed with righteous self delusion we lay down absolutes by which others should organize their society.

Would the rules of canine social organization apply to house cats? Why, then, should our own flawed values apply to dwarves?

The author has used his comic for a bit of social commentary, which I applaud. However, extending this beyond the points made by the author is a mistake. The dwarven social system might be, overall, more just and have fewer members dropping out or being forgotten than ours. In short, it may be better for dwarves overall than our system is for us.

Hilgya is one of those who were hurt by the system. But nobody has asked, what percentage of the dwarf population is similarly unhappy with their societal expectations? Certainly Durkon's family seems to be content with the situation.