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2012-02-25, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I'd argue that case - it's a basic fact that by His Will, the Astronomicon is maintained, which is critical for all inter-system travel. Without the beacon, the Imperium would collapse thus its existence touches everybody to some degree.
Rather than comparing the Emperor to Jesus, I'd compare him to the sun. You know the sun is there but it's so prevalent you stop admiring it for what it is (a giant ball of burning gas which gives life to the world) and start taking it for granted (yes, even in the UK ).
However if the sun stopped shining or burnt differently, Earth would quickly become a lifeless rock hanging in space.
I do concede the rise of the cult of the Emperor and the deviations to it, but even prior to the Emperor's cult, was there any real questioning of his divinity by the normal populace, or even by the Astartes?
I haven't read 15 Hours yet, so will concede the point but I still think live fire exercises in a space ship are highly stupid, no matter how armoured the walls are (even the Space Marines don't do it).
There's a bit of political jiggery-pokery going on in one of the Cain books (For the Emperor, I think), which both reinforces and disproves this point.
The planetary governor is having issues with the Tau and orders the Imperial taskforce to attack the Tau, but the IG general countermands him and instead orders the IG to take the governor into custody.
The PDF starts trying to shoot both sides, while the IG and Tau shoot back and try hard not to shoot each other, although not always successfully.
Seems to me that the governor tends only to have control at the barrel of a gun, barring a full-scale invasion.
True, the Blood Ravens were trying to secure access to the Angel Forge manufacturing facilities, so they would be subject to the governor's whims.
That said, would there be scope for the marines to launch a coup if the situation was serious enough, assuming that the governor wasn't declared a heretic or otherwise disloyal?
Which reminds me, who has right to authorise Exterminatus? I'm assuming the Inquisition and campaign warmasters, and that anybody else has to request it, but I'm not sure whether that's because only the former two groups have the clearance level, or they're the only ones with the means to do so.
In Deathwing, the Dark Angels captain's ship had the means to perform Exterminatus and the situation more than gave him the right to do so.
The Marines Malevolent spring to mind, but are there any IG generals that would directly oppose a marine captain?
For that matter, I'm assuming that the Adeptus Mechanicus does pretty much whatever they like, since via the Titan Legions, they have the biggest guns.
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2012-02-25, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I'm certainly not disagreeing with you (the Sun analogy is actually a much better one than I was using ) but I have always thought of it as a less enlightened interpretation.
By which I mean, what is the Sun doing, right now? How does it work? Is it doing it by choice? Can anyone actually approach the Sun and converse with it? Of course not - THAT is how I see the Imperium's relationship with the Emperor. It's a force of nature that very, very few people can begin to describe - to the populace at large, it's a magnificent and very mysterious thing always hanging over their heads.
In fairness, there's not enough fluff available to say for certain what the average opinion is, but given that even the oldest and most powerful Tech Priests barely know the outlines of how the Golden Throne works, what the Astronomicon actually is and how it is created might as well be fairy tales.
I do concede the rise of the cult of the Emperor and the deviations to it, but even prior to the Emperor's cult, was there any real questioning of his divinity by the normal populace, or even by the Astartes?
A thousand years after his 'death' - when the Primarchs were all but gone and ordinary humans were dozens of generations away from a first-hand account - cults began springing up in His honour regardless of his edict, and it took until M32 for all of these different viewpoints to be amalgamated or destroyed into a single Imperial Cult, so.... There probably was a time when the Emperor's insistence was adhered to, but it was quickly forgotten as time passed.
I haven't read 15 Hours yet, so will concede the point but I still think live fire exercises in a space ship are highly stupid, no matter how armoured the walls are.
Having said that, Imperial ships are tens of kilometres long and several millenium old at the very least. I doubt that a mere lasgun could do them any harm, even from the inside of an empty cargo hold.
That said, would there be scope for the marines to launch a coup if the situation was serious enough, assuming that the governor wasn't declared a heretic or otherwise disloyal?
That said, they would not be allowed to do it for political reasons - the Marines would not be allowed to install themselves as the new Planetary Governors, for example, as going down they route ends with the Tyrant of Badad.
Which reminds me, who has right to authorise Exterminatus? I'm assuming the Inquisition and campaign warmasters, and that anybody else has to request it, but I'm not sure whether that's because only the former two groups have the clearance level, or they're the only ones with the means to do so.- Inquisitors can do it, and are then called to justify their actions before a council of their peers.
- Space Marine Commanders - Captains and above, usually - can do so if the situation warrants it and they have their own means to do so. They're not allowed to order an Imperial Navy ship to do it for them, though again they can make a polite request.
- Imperial Guard Generals can request an Exterminatus, but I believe that it has to be authorised by a Lord General Militant (such as Zyvan, as you mentioned the Cain novels )
- By the same token, an Imperial Warmaster is above reproach in this regard.
- I'm fairly sure that Imperial Navy Admirals cannot enact an Exterminatus of their own accord, despite having the firepower to do so. They have absolutely no juresduction over ground compaigns.
- And finally, I believe that in extreme circumstances a Planetary Governor (or High Magus, on Forgeworlds) can order an Exterminatus of their own planet if it's completely overrun and no one is coming to their aid. It would take someone quite ballsy to do such a thing, but then what sort of life would they have if they fled and left their planet in the hands of an enemy?
The Marines Malevolent spring to mind, but are there any IG generals that would directly oppose a marine captain?
All of them canonically defied a Blood Raven Captain-Commander (among others) and refused to leave their assignment, which ended in outright warfare between Guardsman and Marines in each of their respective campaigns.
Although I doubt that any Commissar-General would have no doubt in doing it, if they were convinced of a better course of action.
For that matter, I'm assuming that the Adeptus Mechanicus does pretty much whatever they like, since via the Titan Legions, they have the biggest guns.Last edited by Wraith; 2012-02-25 at 01:56 PM.
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2012-02-25, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Has anyone picked up the 25-for-25 ebook? I'm debating it, but the info does not tell much about the stories, and I'd like to know more before I buy it. How much do the stories cover? SM? Chaos? Horus Heresy era? Any xenos? Inquisition?
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2012-02-25, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I haven't picked it up, but I recognise some of the titles - they're reprints from old issues of White Dwarf and Inferno! magazines, so you could probably Google them individually to find out what they're about.
The ones that I recognise are generally very good - The Wrath of Khârn is one that especially stands out as being memorable, as it details a fight between two Chaos factions (you don't need to take a wild running guess to figure who wins that one, but it's a good yarn none-the-less )
Many of the ones I don't recognise are newly released for this collection, so I can't comment on their quality. I'd imagine that they're comparative to the othersLast edited by Wraith; 2012-02-25 at 04:23 PM.
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2012-02-25, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-02-25, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
You're forgetting the fact that the vast majority of the Imperium never leave their homeworld, and most of those never even leave their hab-spire. The Emperor is an entirely intangible entity to most people.
Warp Navigation and the Astronomicon don't really get talked about all that much if you never even come close to a starship.
Rather than comparing the Emperor to Jesus, I'd compare him to the sun.
For that matter, I'm assuming that the Adeptus Mechanicus does pretty much whatever they like, since via the Titan Legions, they have the biggest guns.
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2012-02-25, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
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2012-02-25, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Maybe it's just an honouriffic? Maybe is a ceremonial title? Maybe it's just a colloquialism? Honestly, I don't know for sure.
Going by the description given on Lexicanum and from what little I have seen, a Lord Commissar is the same thing as a Commissar-General in that their primary role is to control and organise the Commissariat.
The only thing I can say for sure is that the Commissariat does not have a High Lord representative, so it's definitely a role subordinate to that.Last edited by Wraith; 2012-02-25 at 06:54 PM.
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2012-02-25, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
By which I mean, what is the Sun doing, right now? How does it work? Is it doing it by choice? Can anyone actually approach the Sun and converse with it? Of course not - THAT is how I see the Imperium's relationship with the Emperor. It's a force of nature that very, very few people can begin to describe - to the populace at large, it's a magnificent and very mysterious thing always hanging over their heads.
In fairness, there's not enough fluff available to say for certain what the average opinion is, but given that even the oldest and most powerful Tech Priests barely know the outlines of how the Golden Throne works, what the Astronomicon actually is and how it is created might as well be fairy tales.
From what I've read, most worship of the Emperor focusses around some vague debt that every Imperial citizen own the Emperor, because he gave everything for the Imperium. Cults where the Emperor is more concrete, like a sun cult, might also say that the Emperor gives life to this specific planet.
That being said, the cult of the Emperor is incredibly diverse, and the Adpetus Ministorum travels the void and catalogues all manners of faiths. Mostly, they are pretty lenient (for 40K standards), so there is a wide array of cults, some scraping heresy, and there may come times when, due to a change in leadership, a cult that was perfectly normal is now considered an abomination.
As for Space Marines, I figured they operated mostly on a "what are you going to do about it, punk?" policy. They know how powerful they are, they know how little everyone likes to anger them, and they therefore know how much they can get away with. It is only out of politeness that some chapters act differently. Just like the Inquisiton, and, come tot hink of it, most people with very much power.Si non confectus, non reficiat.
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2012-02-26, 09:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I think the difference is, that a Lord Commissar is a more senior Commissar in charge of recruitment and promotion.
A Commissar-General is a Commissar who also has an IG command role - compare Gaunt to Cain.
Cain repeatedly makes note of the fact that he is outside the command chain (hence his more frank and personal relationship with Zyvan), thus he can't technically give orders to IG soldiers (he gets away with it due to his good relationship with the Valhallans and his evident combat experience).
Gaunt has lost part of his impartiality in taking the command role in the Tanith, but it also makes his orders ironcast, since he's both a senior officer and the guy in charge of regimental discipline (effectively making him judge, jury and executioner of the Tanith).
I'm not so sure on how a Commissar would interact with Astartes though - neither of them have representation among the Lord of Terra so they're both operating with the same officiality.
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2012-02-26, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Well, we've seen how Cain reacts to being attatched to Astartes; he runs and hides from the combat 'til either the SM's have wiped out the threat or there's none left between him and the enemy.
Honestly I'd expect any commissar to do the same. Trying to execute a space marine for dereliction of duty is very, very close to Heresey. The Emperor himself said "They shall know no fear"
So basically you're just a guy with a fancy sash and a lasgun among power armored supermen.
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2012-02-26, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
The fluff does talk about the other 99%. Those not fighting are simply operating the factories, farms and all the other logistics to keep the imperium's war machine going nonstop. Eternal war isn't cheap.
Oh, and all the war-related bureaucracy of course. That employs billions on terra alone.
On the contrary, if nothing else, what keeps the IoM remotely united is the fact they make sure everybody is taught the same thing and stomp anyone trying to say other things.
From Black Crusade:
"The Imperium has been far more successful in creating a common cultural and philosophical centre by dominating science, education and the arts on worlds from one side of the galaxy to the other."
Plus countless billions that pilgrimage to terra, so they know the emperor is there.Last edited by maglag; 2012-02-26 at 10:50 AM.
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2012-02-26, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Didn't Dark Heresy talk about how diverse the Imperial cult is? And isn't that how the Temple Tendency was born? I'm sadly away from my books, so I can't check.
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2012-02-26, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I think it might be more accurate to say that they wouldn't do it because Commissars are attached to the IG command structure, and thus have no authority over any other organisation. Even the Imperial Navy has it's own Commissars posted aboard ships, and Marines have Chaplains who pretty much fulfill the same role.
I suppose there are unlikely situations where there is no one else around to hold the Marine to account, a Commissar might make it his business depending on how brave they were.... But if a Marine is doing something that warrents an execution, chances are that he's already a Renegade (and thus will soon have his entire Chapter on his heels looking for blood...) or is doing something already investigated by the Inquisition and cleared (certain blood rites performed by guys like the Blood Angels, for example, or a Space Wolf Wulfen 'mutant').
The only alternative would be for dramatic reasons, like the Marine protagonist of a novel who knows something that no one else does, and acts on it for the Greater Good and is pursued by a Commissar. He'll eventually be vindicated for saving lives, etc, but in the mean time the Commissar is acting in the right.~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
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2012-02-27, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Space Marines answer to no one other than the High Lords of Terra and (usually) the Inquisition. They do not need permission of a Planetary Governer to do anything at all, least of all make planetfall and fight xenos.
That's one of the things that takes a while to grasp about the Imperium - the Emperor is not tangible to the general populous.
Also, it may be possible to talk to the Emperor directly in the throne room in the Imperial Palace, since I've seen in some sources that the Emperor can freely manipulate reality in there. But since no one except the Adeptus Custodes ever go in there, nobody knows.
That being said, the cult of the Emperor is incredibly diverse, and the Adpetus Ministorum travels the void and catalogues all manners of faiths. Mostly, they are pretty lenient (for 40K standards), so there is a wide array of cults, some scraping heresy, and there may come times when, due to a change in leadership, a cult that was perfectly normal is now considered an abomination.
Cain repeatedly makes note of the fact that he is outside the command chain (hence his more frank and personal relationship with Zyvan), thus he can't technically give orders to IG soldiers (he gets away with it due to his good relationship with the Valhallans and his evident combat experience)."Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
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2012-02-27, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
From The Last Ditch (page 225)- another footnote
1. As the Commissariat doesn't have a hierarchical structure, like that of the Imperial Guard, seniority is determined purely by length of service and number of commendations. In the last century or so the convention of referring to the longest serving and most decorated veterans as Lord (or Lady) Commissars has gained some currency, although Cain, who would most certainly have qualified for such an honorific, disdained the practice, and always refused to be addressed in such a manner.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-02-28, 03:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I think Jaq Draco went in there and had a brief audience with the Empreror, but came out pretty much as confused as when he went in.
Huh, so their use of 'feth' as a curse word is both vulgar and blasphemous. Two birds with one stone.
The problem with being a little too trigger happy is that it often results in fragging, something which Cain mentions a couple times. Remember, while a bullet (or lasbolt/bolter round) may have your name on it, shrapnel is addressed "To whom it may concern".
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2012-02-28, 07:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
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2012-02-28, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Going back to IG structure, how many men are there in an infantry regiment?
Tanith First and Only had about 2000 men at full strength, but the Valhallan 597th only has 1000 soldiers I believe.
I know the 596th was formed out of the decimated remains of two other regiments, which would account for its initially short numbers, but they don't seem to increase that much over the years (then again, Valhalla does support a number of regiments so new recruits would be spread out among all of them).
Is it just variable depending how many people they can enlist/conscript at the time or is there an IG version of the Codex Astartes?
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2012-02-28, 07:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
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2012-02-28, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
What exactly IS an audience with the Emperor? Do they actually let you in, before him and all that jazz? And what happens then?
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2012-02-28, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I imagine it means the Adeptus Custodes actually let you into the throne room, before the God-Emperor on the Golden Throne and everything. They would probably also have about 27 different guns pointed at your head to make sure you don't try anything.
What happens then? Well, the Emperor speaks to you. His actual physical body may be more or less a rotting corpse, but he's still conscious to some degree and that close to the Throne he can manipulate reality pretty freely. So he can still talk, either out loud or directly in your head."Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved with a suitable application of high explosives.
"Time to throw the dice." - Mat Cauthon, Wheel of Time
"Nothing good can ever come from staying with normal people."
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2012-02-28, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
IG organizational structure is extremely loose and nonstandardized (for example, you'll find Colonels, Commanders, Marshals, Battle-masters, Tribunes and Warlords in charge of Regiments, Armies, Legions and Battallions, all at about the same rank), which results in a lot of variation. The number of soldiers in an individual regiment varies significantly based on what sort of regiment it is, where it was raised, when it was raised, who raised it and what sort of history it has. Notably, the 597th you use as an example is a mechanized regiment, not infantry, which accounts for the unusually low overall strength. Armoured and artillery regiments are typically even smaller than that, with a typical tank regiment, according to the old Armoured Company rules, consisting of somewhere in the region of 600 soldiers operating and maintaining 95 or so tanks.
Generally speaking, Cheesegear is correct about the sheer variation in infantry regiments, though 100 is seriously low-ball; generally, you won't see a Regiment with less than 500 men. That said, if you want the "gold standard" of infantry regiments, the Cadian VIII is made up of 24 companies, each 300 soldiers strong, plus supporting elements including chimeras and sentinels that bump the regiment's overall strength to about 8000 men.Avatar by the wonderful SubLimePie. Former avatar by Andraste.
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2012-02-28, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
What happens then? Well, the Emperor speaks to you. His actual physical body may be more or less a rotting corpse, but he's still conscious to some degree and that close to the Throne he can manipulate reality pretty freely. So he can still talk, either out loud or directly in your head.
Though of course there is allways a few crazy people claiming that the emperor has spoken to them.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-02-28, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
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2012-02-28, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Wait, somebody actually managed to fight his way past the Custodes?
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved with a suitable application of high explosives.
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2012-02-28, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
This is correct.
After being interred within the Golden Throne, the Emperor would sporadically communicate using his psychic powers to a select few of his subordinates, however his words were often cryptic or just downright confused. This only lasted for about a 1,000 years or so and then he lapsed into a silence that has not been broken in over nine millenia.
In the 41st millenium, the only way that communication has occurred with the Emperor is through the Emperor's Tarot - which is at best vague and at worst superstition, which we all know Tzeentch just loves to play around with. GW have never definitively said that the Tarot is a direct and accurate link to the Emperor, any more than 'real' Tarot cards are a direct and accurate link to something in our world. It's all down the who is using them, and how their particular story is being told, that determines how 'real' they are.
There are some examples of people apparently communicating with the Emperor - Alicia Dominicia probably being the most famous - but no one has ever found out exactly what took place. She may have been 'spoken' to, or so may have reached some Divine Epiphany brought on by her surroundings, but we'll probably never know for sure.
The next closest would probably be the Soul Binding Process used on Imperial Navigators. Their minds are momentarily touched with that of the Emperor, killing or driving insane most and empowering the few that survive. Whether or not this could be considered 'communication' varies greatly from case to case - there's a long list of side-effects that occur even to the successful supplicants, and claiming to hear His voice is probably the least of what they could expect.
Originally Posted by CheesegearLast edited by Wraith; 2012-02-28 at 06:56 PM.
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2012-02-29, 07:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Hmm, I wasn't aware that the IG had the light/motorised/mechanised/armoured infantry differentiation, but I guess that just emphasises the tech level disparity throughout the whole Imperium, especially since 'cavalry' covers people riding animals (or cyborg war beasts) up to tanks.
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2012-02-29, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Hmm, I wasn't aware that the IG had the light/motorised/mechanised/armoured infantry differentiation, but I guess that just emphasises the tech level disparity throughout the whole Imperium, especially since 'cavalry' covers people riding animals (or cyborg war beasts) up to tanks."Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved with a suitable application of high explosives.
"Time to throw the dice." - Mat Cauthon, Wheel of Time
"Nothing good can ever come from staying with normal people."
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2012-03-04, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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