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2012-04-14, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-14, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Speaking of Quarians, I still don't know what the heck is up with Tali's photo... photoshopping a picture of Miss England seems just bizzarely lazy to me.
My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
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2012-04-14, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Fair enough, although it doesn't alter my concerns that Cerberus could have a stationary main base parked around a star for more than a month without the Alliance figuring out where they are. They're even doing major research, shipping loads of troops and even the half-built Reaper from ME2 there. Isn't someone paying attention to the traffic going through those Mass Effect gates?
Really, Cerberus in general shatters my suspension of disbelief in the later games. In ME1 they were more of a rogue terrorist group new on the scene, having to hide from the Alliance and Spectres. Then in ME2 you learn they're run by a James Bond villain with access to infinite resources and the best tech in the galaxy. I could still buy it in that game because it was a space opera through and through and I thought it would be tied up in the sequel, but in ME3 they almost overshadow the Reapers. TIM's effectively the final boss.
It's like Cerberus is a Mary Sue organisation. Shepard's got the backing of every military in the galaxy and the Shadow Broker on the friggin' Normandy, but nope, Cerberus is still better than you.
Edit: Also can't forget about the biotic ultimate ninja assassin guy. What was up with him?Last edited by Trazoi; 2012-04-14 at 06:02 PM.
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2012-04-14, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
If Krogan live forever, and presumably stay fertile for a large chunk of that time, all the more reason that a less brutal genophage might have been a better idea. It would be nice if Mordin's cure just happened to stabilize them somewhere between their peak and their valley.
Tali also says however that they might keep the suits (even if you got the good ending on Rannoch), as they are ingrained into their culture now. This is of course a sly way to keep BW from having to develop all new models/art assets for the Quarians, should they decide to continue the series (or release post-ending stories in other media.)
But the upshot, as she says, is that "a puncture won't mean a death sentence anymore." Which is good news for the Quarians getting shot up in multiplayer.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2012-04-14, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
I'd rather my choices were magenta, azure, and buick skylark metallic mint green.
Here is a video of some of the devs from PAX East. At one point they address it, very briefly. While I can see where they were going with photo realism, unfortunately they went about it in a foolish way. They took the time to face model Allers, why not Tali?
Having just gotten to Sanctuary on my Insanity run, it seems to me they meant to have Cerberus and the Reapers be seen as semi-allied. But it just does not seem that way and Cerberus plays more like a thorn in your side than your arch rival. But you're final confrontation is with TIM not the reapers. The wrap up of the reaper arc is, say it with me now, the Catalyst and do we have to go over everything wrong with that again?I'm not bad, I just aim that way ~my own comment on my Call of Duty abilities.
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2012-04-14, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Cerberus' supervillainy did get a bit cartoony at the end there. I mean, launching an assault on the Salarian homeworld? The guys who do James Bond better than James Bond? I was shaking my head a bit at that one.
It woiuldn't surprise me to learn that TIM's ancestor was named Luthor.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2012-04-14, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
I was expecting that was part of a big gambit to get the galaxy's attention, making them focus on wiping out Cerberus right then. Maybe a short intel mission followed by a strike on the main Cerberus base that was now beyond the Omega 4 relay. All part of a plan to recover info on the Catalyst that TIM was planting for his Evil Supervillain Masterplan.
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2012-04-14, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Did they ever establish why cerberus showed up there on Sur-Kesh? Was it because they wanted their Tupperware back? They cast TIM as too much of a stick in the mud. He should have focused on pushing the crucible and then stolen it rather than sabotage it. He needed the frakking thing for his nutso plan and yet was trying to stop its creation!
I'm not bad, I just aim that way ~my own comment on my Call of Duty abilities.
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2012-04-14, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-14, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
You're assuming a) that data from the mass relays is accessible to the puny organics in Citadel Traffic Control, b) that TIM wouldn't change stars evey few weeks (even differently-sized stars would look the same if Cronus Station is parked close (or far) enough for them to become similar), and c) that Cronus Station uses the mass relays in the first place. None of these need necessarily be true.
Don't forget, throwing money and tech and convenience at you was just to get you to rationalize working with Cerberus. That way, he could easily get you to overestimate how many resources he has on hand. The fact that he refers to employees as "resources" confuses this issue. However...
This. Indoctrination can only go so far. It can turn soldiers into mooks, it cannot turn scientists into soldiers. And Kai Leng got far too much screentime than he's worth.
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2012-04-14, 08:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
If I understand it correctly, a great deal of human combat effectiveness is impaired by our brain's social restrictions. What happens when you destroy the part of their mind that is responsible for these kinds of thoughts?
I recall Cerberus describing their indoctrinated troops as shock troopers; This would make sense, as the indoctrination procedure would strip them of self-preservation instincts.
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2012-04-14, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
It's been a while since I've played ME2, but I remember thinking of Cerberus being cashed-up but relatively small. That's why they prefered people like Shepard and Miranda - small teams of super skilled agents that can operate under the radar.
I think that's why why I was getting "off" vibes about Cerberus the whole time in ME3. They could either be a super secret organisation, or they could have an army. Once they have the latter they cease being the former.
That and TIM really didn't seem in character by being so antagonistic. Before going into the game I thought he was going to offer to help against the Reapers and be a big part of the Paragon / Renegade differences - what kind of atrocities are you willing to stoop to to win the war?
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2012-04-14, 08:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
He wanted Palaven to fall - with the galaxy's greatest military taken down, more might have been willing to consider his crazy control-the-Reapers plan.
Not true; the Collectors and Cannibals got pretty good with firearms after being repurposed, after all. That's due to Reaper tech implants, not mere indoctrination.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2012-04-14, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Besides, the principle seems to work under the same rules as undead skeletons. Those guys are always great with weapons.
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2012-04-14, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Weren't those major plot points? That Cerberus was changing gears and becoming more of a straight-up army, that Cerberus had incredibly vast amounts of manpower for no immediately apparent reason, and that TIM was doing everything in his power to subvert the most high-profile anti-Reaper campaign?
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2012-04-14, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Yes, but the problem was the plot tried to have it both ways. Cerberus was moving troops and equipment all over the place and performing large scale operations, but the rest of the galaxy couldn't figure out any leads. If they hadn't had a lucky break, they've have been toast. It broke my sense of disbelief to think that Cerberus was so damn good they could pull off all those stunts and not have Liara's info network have at least some idea where to look. Heck, the moment I heard about Sanctuary I knew it was going to be some dodgy, probably Cerberus thing. Why not go there immediately.
The other thing is I didn't like TIM being so obviously indoctrinated and clearly wrong from the get go. I think it would have been better for him to be there presenting another option, offering Renegade choices that wouldn't be bound to the same sorts of moral restrictions that the Alliance would be. I'm mainly disappointed they missed a trick or two incorporating previous player decisions into the mix. I thought the choice at the end of ME2 could have had a major impact, but instead it ended up being basically +/- 10 asset points.
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2012-04-14, 10:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
But. We would still need that military to get the crucible operational. Cerberus was big and bad in ME3, but as soon as they we're found out the 5th fleet smashed em in one blow. They weren't as strong as a full fledged galactic power. Meaning they would need the power of a galactic power to claim the crucible and deploy it.
Also the Codex in ME2 does state the Cerberus went from political, economic and black op shenanigans to Military build up. But I felt it moved with such impunity at times that one or two cruisers simply could have forced them off of Eden Prime or Benning. Then the Allies can claim a win and morale goes up. But instead they are running around, putting out official statements(the mission on Benning, has them officially denying involvement in civilian killings) and acting like a fully formed galactic power.
Not true; the Collectors and Cannibals got pretty good with firearms after being repurposed, after all. That's due to Reaper tech implants, not mere indoctrination.I'm not bad, I just aim that way ~my own comment on my Call of Duty abilities.
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2012-04-14, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
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2012-04-14, 11:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
My reading of Mars when they said info for the Catalyst was missing was that it was heavily implied Cerberus had managed to steal that piece, so going after them was crucial to complete the Crucible. But no-one seemed to care that much, even though they were betting everything on their mystery super-weapon.
Really the whole backbone of ME3's story was quite snarled up, and that's not including the ending.
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2012-04-14, 11:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Eh, no worse than anything else. It's just falling victim to over-analysis now.
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2012-04-14, 11:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
But I like over-analysing game stories.
No really, ME3's story was bugging me before it reached the end and I think the fixation of Cerberus was the issue. All the Mass Effects follow the Hollywood three act structure (Act I - introduce the problem/story, Act II - gather allies & ask questions and answer them, Act III - fight from the low point to solve the problem/story at the conclusion.) But ME3 doesn't answer the questions about the problem it's set up.
The problems Shepard is trying to solve in the first act of the Mass Effects are:
- Stop Saren
- Stop the Collectors
- Stop the Reapers
But while ME1 and ME2 ask and answer questions about what Saren and the Collectors are up to through the second act, that's not the questions asked in ME3. We know what the Reapers are up to. Instead, the actual questions are about Cerberus and the Illusive Man; it's the whole lead up to the final mission. It's structured as if defeating TIM is Shepard's ultimate objective, with the Reapers as a sidenote.
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2012-04-14, 11:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-15, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
The difference is in Shepard's objective. After all, Saren and the Collectors turned out to be the same thing as the Reapers in their perspective games. But Shepard started out wanting to stop Saren/the Collectors originally, whereas in ME3 it starts wanting to directly stop the Reapers. But the way the story is structured, it's as if Shepard's story set out to stop TIM. Except it didn't.
They should have built the story around Harbinger as the main antagonist. The "gathering allies" Act II part of the story is great, it's the start, end and bridging pieces that don't work. (Especially the end, but we all know that.)Last edited by Trazoi; 2012-04-15 at 12:19 AM. Reason: grammar
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2012-04-15, 12:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Thanks to Veera for the avatar.
I keep my stories in a blog. You should read them.
5E Sorcerous Origin: Arcanist
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2012-04-15, 05:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Pretty much, yes. Besides, if you're modifying the photo of a human to get a photo of an alien, you're doing something wrong.
So was I, given that she is, well, an alien. I kinda imagined Quarians with elongated faces, narrow mouths and small eyes, myself. And then it turns out they look like humans with cosmetic differences, making Asari and Batarians look original in comparision.My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
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2012-04-15, 06:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
They explained that in that conference convention thingy that was linked earlier. They based the faces of lots of the characters off real people (at the conference there was the woman who was the model for Samara's face, cosplaying as Samara.) They felt they needed to do the same job with Tali, so they searched through all the stuff they had and decided on that on.
As to why they chose to do it as a picture and not in the in-game engine, I was less sure of, but from the sounds of it, had Tali's face been done in-engine, it would have been a 3D version of Miss England.
As to why they made it less alien that I would have expected... Go figure.
One wonders if time or money constraints factored in, as well as their artitisic decisions (the latter being the assumption that those who weren't interested in seeing her face wouldn't be romancing her, and so doing it that way kept them happy, because finding out what see looked like was basically optional.)
Doing the way the did certainly achieved the latter goal (and it sort of makes sense, because unsuited Quarians is sort of a big thing culturally) and was probably quite a cheap answer in terms of time and resources, for something one guesses they felt was not a critical item, when those resources could be better spent elsewhere. (And so the face would be quite close, i.e. having hair, because it would require less modification, and the wanted it to look like an actual photograph. (Whether anyone thinks they achieved that goal is another matter!))
I can sort of see their reasoning, though, as someone playing FemShep, I intensely disagree with, because I couldn't see anything. (I'm surprised you didn't all hear me scream when she took her mask of from the back on Rannoch, and even SHEPARD got to see it, but not me!)Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2012-04-15 at 06:29 AM.
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2012-04-15, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
Meh, I've watched most of the Star Treks. Anything looks good after that.
I really don't mind the humanoid appearance, considering that, thematically, the suit really is the species' appearance, not the face. It's still odd biologically, but not to a massive extent; no worse than making most of the species encountered roughly humanoid in shape.
Maybe their males look different? The masks are different there.Last edited by Luzahn; 2012-04-15 at 12:58 PM.
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2012-04-15, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
What bugged me more than anything about Cerberus was it's ships. Troops I can understand, they indoctrinate people into being Shock Troopers, they've got the manufacturing contacts to arm and armor them, ect. I can also understand the secrecy, since just about everybody in Cerberus is indoctrinated to commit suicide on capture they can keep their movements hidden, especially if they have sympathizers inside the alliance military working to thwart investigations.
What I don't get is their ships. In ME3 it sounds like Cerberus has a navy, they talk about Cerberus Cruisers and fighter squadrons, and taking on the Illusive Man's space station requires Hackett to pull ships (At that point the combined might of just about every power in the galaxy) away from the Crucible. I could understand if they had a few freighters with guns put on them, but it sounds like they have full-scale warships. You could hide soldiers, but a warship takes LOTS of time and resources to build. You'd need to secure a very large facility, engineers, parts, ect. The Normandy SR2 was still a frigate, bigger than the old one, but still tiny by warship standards.
Plus, Warships take TIME. Indoctrination means that Cerberus can get an Insta-Army. Take a reasonably healthy human, semi-huskify them, and you've got a fanatically devoted foot soldier. If the Huskification process dosn't train them, you send them through super-bootcamp, which because they're now tireless fanatics, they but everything into. And you can train them in parallel, hundreds if not thousands of brainwashed refugees at a time! You can't pressure-cook a warship though. Even if you have the facilities, materials, and an indoctrinated shipwright, you can't get a fleet quickly, but not long after the Reapers hit they've got warships running around.
I personally justify it by saying that the Cerberus ships are largely Alliance ships full of indoctrinated crew with a new coat of paint.
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2012-04-15, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
The problem is basically cultural. Krogan females can produce a thousand young in a single year, but nothing says they have to. During the Rebellions they had been uplifted from self-inflicted near-extinction where the viability rates the genophage inflicted were the normal survival rates, set to fighting a war as disposable infantry, and then simply given empty worlds. Now, especially if Wrex and Eve are both around, it's perfectly possible for them to manage their own populations.
You can talk to EDI after she integrates with the Normandy and no longer has blocks to prevent her answering some questions. She'll tell you that Cerberus consists of 150 people and several billion credits' annual funding.
I agree that it would have made a lot more sense for Cerberus to be less numerous and less clear-cut an enemy - for them to have been an option Renegades could have justifiably considered, and for the eventual defeat of the Reapers to have been treated as basically a given (with all the "really really hard to do we need lots of ships and guns and this McGuffin too" stuff, mind) with the real question being how.
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2012-04-15, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)
I had a big long thing about why they should have fully modeled Tali and why they wasted time on Allers etc. But it got eaten by the forum. Think its a sign?
On Cerberus' ships. The way I understood it Cerberus' connections to industries allowed them access to materials and schematics from Military Contractors. They basically skimmed off spare parts, resources, tech, and money from these. So as a cruiser was being built for the Alliance parts were manufactured but shipped elsewhere through agents meaning the Alliance funded Carberus' fleet.
I saw Cerberus as the dark mirror reflection of the Alliance, waiting to cross over and consume it. That would have been an interesting plot Cerberus agents in the Alliance working with Shep, claiming its all for the greater good. Then they could do the coup storyline with Shep picking a side, killing TIM, Udina, and Kai Leng in one blow. Any other Cerberus encountered after that are splinted fragments. It would have kept the focus on the reapers and made more sense for TIM.I'm not bad, I just aim that way ~my own comment on my Call of Duty abilities.