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2012-07-11, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
She has tryed the pill but it doesn't work for her, because it doesn't make her period finish quicker, I picked up a couple home pregnacy tests today for her to try really wishing its a false alarm, and we have it narrowed down from when we think it coulda happened, so it has onnly been a week tops, if she is pregnate we are hoping to do the pill abortion then surgrey abortion, I belive you can only do the pill way till 5 weeks so we gotta get ball rolling quick
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2012-07-11, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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- UK
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2012-07-11, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
You know that the womb has no connection to the digestive system, right? Pick an entrance. You have two options.
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2012-07-11, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
What? I'm pretty sure the reduced period is only sometimes a side-effect - in fact, I'm pretty sure in some cases it can actually make it even heavier (though I could be making that up). Her period finishing quicker is highly unlikely to have any impact on whether or not the Pill works. In any case, I was recommending the Implant, which is a completely different contraceptive. In any case, she needs to go talk to a doctor about this. I'm going to stress this again, because I think it's really true: your girlfriend NEEDS to go talk to a doctor about her contraception options. An abortion should not be your primary means of baby prevention. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say DO NOT HAVE SEX AGAIN UNTIL YOU'VE SORTED OUT HER CONTRACEPTION. Whether or not she is pregnant again. No P in the V until you can stop the S connecting with the E.
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2012-07-11, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2011
Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
I asked whether it was alright to put my arm around a girl once beforehand. This did not go well. Maybe it was just that one time, but I suspect asking for permission like that is a bad move in general.
Her roomate proceeded to describe this date she had just been on, where the guy had bought her favorite flowers, taken her to a nice restaraunt, was well dressed, smelled nice, etc. Perfect date basically. Then she says "At the end, he asked if he could kiss me"
My female friend said something along the lines of 'ew' and then asked if she was going to see him again, and the response was 'No.'
My take is that, while some guys think its a respect issue, most girls see asking to kiss them as a sign that you have zero self confidence, and that you aren't willing to take any risks.
My opinion is that if you make it through a whole date, and at the end, you kissing her would make her upset, then you weren't going to get a second date anyways. There's nothing to lose.
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2012-07-11, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
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2012-07-12, 04:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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- Netherlands
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
It seems to me that men in general are expected be assertive and take risks whilst women can afford a much more passive approach. As such a girl initiating a kiss seems rare, or at least uncommon. It's not that women are never assertive themselves when it comes to seeking romances, but most of the time the male has to do it. It strikes me as a double standard, but there's not much to be done about it.
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2012-07-12, 06:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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2012-07-12, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2011
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2012-07-12, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- I smell chocolate
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
It's something I've noticed that I find amusing -- anecdotes I've heard from a lot of women who insist they reject traditional gender roles in their relationships, but still waited patiently for the guy they were dating to kiss them, and never realized the irony.
Of course not all of them do that. In some cases they lost patience, at which point they took action themselves, and told the guy to kiss them already.My take is that, while some guys think its a respect issue, most girls see asking to kiss them as a sign that you have zero self confidence, and that you aren't willing to take any risks.A potent relic of the past. 'Tis said the wearer commands the wisdom of kings, and can see the unseeable.
Like the grue lurking in your bedroom waiting for you to fall asleep.
But perhaps some things are better left unseen...
Dazzling avatar by Ceika
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2012-07-12, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Correction: They stop playing stupid games when they stop working. This usually happens a bit after the point when simply being female stops bringing top-caliber male attention.
(At least usually. There's always a few stragglers who just keep insisting more loudly that they deserve special treatment. Mostly they're good for schadenfreude.)
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2012-07-12, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Wow.
If I wait for a guy to kiss me, it has precisely jack **** to do with "but it's the boy's job!" and everything to do with:
1. self-esteem issues. What if he's not into me or I even gross him out? That'd be humiliating. There's the flip-side to this, as well: it's good for my ego if he wants to kiss me - better than if he's okay with me kissing him.
2. plausible deniability. I think doing something with this guy is a really bad idea but I want to anyway so I'll let him make the first move so if everything goes terribly terribly wrong it'll be his fault. Yes, I'm well aware that this is a bad thing.
3. I enjoy watching them squirm
Note that these are all specifically if I wait for a guy to kiss me. More often they just get in first, or even catch me by surprise.
Notice that these would all be relevant if the other person were female? For the most part, though, if I really want to kiss someone, I will - when it's definitely, guaranteed, no doubt about it, no question reciprocated.
And now I'm thinking back to everyone I've ever kissed, trying to work out who kissed whom first... Truth or Dare, Truth or Dare, him, him, both, me, me, can't remember but probably him, him, her, him, me.
Now, how about we move on from the pointless misogyny, huh?Last edited by Serpentine; 2012-07-12 at 11:46 AM.
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2012-07-12, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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- Netherlands
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
To be honest I'm not entirely sure what you mean to say by this. Do you mean to argue that there are no differences in what society generally expects of men and women or something else?
Now, how about we move on from the pointless misogyny, huh?Last edited by Form; 2012-07-12 at 12:41 PM.
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2012-07-12, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
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2012-07-12, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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- Netherlands
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2012-07-12, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2011
Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
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2012-07-12, 12:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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2012-07-12, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
I wasn't only talking about you, but the whole lot of you, making sweeping accusations and judgements. You are all aware that even where double standards are in practice (and far, far less often than you lot appear to believe) they go both ways, yeah? That a woman who is "too active" is liable to be labelled a slut or somesuch nonsense? If you're gonna make assumptions that women who don't initiate kissing because they're consciously thinking about how that's the guy's job, maybe you could have a shot at considering the possibility that maybe the reason they're so conscious of it is not "applying rules only when they're to your advantage", but fear of censure if they should dare step foot out of their allotted passive role.
Although personally, I find the idea that anyone would be pondering cultural gender roles when in a situation where kissing is known to be imminent pretty unlikely.The Iron Avatarist Hall of Fame!
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2012-07-12, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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- Leeds, UK
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Bolded is very true in my case. I have no problem if I feel I have a chance of making the move, but the bolded statement means that often I have to juggle whether I want to be "seen" as a slut, or go with going ahead and doing what I want. Good example of this is friends with benefits cases - guys who do this get praised and people telling them how awesome they are that they've got such a thing. Girls get people whispering behind their backs calling them a slut - even if they only have one such friends with benefits relationship, and are single.
Double standards are everywhere."I'm just going on motive and opportunity here and the fact that if the earth got swallowed by a black hole, I'd look suspiciously in your direction first."
~ Timberwolf
"I blame Castaras. You know... In general."
~ KuReshtin
"Castaras - An absolutely adorable facade that hides a truly ruthless streak."
~ The Succubus
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2012-07-12, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2011
Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
I think we're dealing with a culture gap here.
I went to a big school in the northeast in the US, and nobody had any problems with anybody having "friends with benefits" relationships (nobody calls them that). It was very common, and not considered abnormal, girl or guy.
Then again, the northeast is significantly less religious than the rest of the US, and I think a lot of the "women are supposed to be sexually pure" crap stems from "No sex till marriage" religious views. Those societies have accepted "boys will be boys" but haven't moved forward enough to get the other side of that.
TLDR: theres a good chance people are just talking past each other here. Where I'm from, the "she's a slut" just doesn't seem to be an issue, and yet (mostly younger) girls stilll insist on the games.
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2012-07-12, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
I've heard the angle of "girls who are sexually active* are sluts" far more often than "it's unfair that the guy has to be the one to kiss the girl". Culture gap has nothing to do with it, unless you'd care to grant that guys having to initiate kisses is also subject to that gap.
*by which I don't just mean "having sex", but "will seek out or initiate sexual-type activities"The Iron Avatarist Hall of Fame!
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2012-07-12, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
I have not made any sweeping accusations and judgements. I have neither said nor implied that 'women are all hypocrits'. You can't just carelessly make people out for misogynists the way you have without any distinction.
You are all aware that even where double standards are in practice (and far, far less often than you lot appear to believe) they go both ways, yeah? That a woman who is "too active" is liable to be labelled a slut or somesuch nonsense?
If you're gonna make assumptions that women who don't initiate kissing because they're consciously thinking about how that's the guy's job, maybe you could have a shot at considering the possibility that maybe the reason they're so conscious of it is not "applying rules only when they're to your advantage", but fear of censure if they should dare step foot out of their allotted passive role.
Although personally, I find the idea that anyone would be pondering cultural gender roles when in a situation where kissing is known to be imminent pretty unlikely.
And if you actually want a serious and civil discussion, don't call me or imply that I am a misogynist. I abstain from veiled personal insults as well.
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2012-07-12, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2011
Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
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2012-07-12, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Form, I say again: I was not referring solely to you, but to the whole discussion. The whole thing stank of "poor boys, have to deal with those mean selfish girls" - yes, what you said contributed to it, and I will stand by my inclusion of you in my complaint, but you were hardly the only person involved in that conversation and I am aware that you aren't responsible for everything I'm pissed off about.
edit @Synovia: But I'm not just talking about the slut thing. In fact, that was entirely incidental to my complaint. I'm talking about... well, just read the whole discussion again from this post until my first comment on it.Last edited by Serpentine; 2012-07-12 at 01:47 PM.
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2012-07-12, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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- Netherlands
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
And I'm saying again you shouldn't throw around an accusation of misogyny like that.
I'm not responsible for anything you seem to have ascribed to me. Point out where I've stated women consciously think and abuse society's different expectations or where I made sweeping accusations.
I stand by what I've said and that your accusation of misogyny is entirely improper.Last edited by Form; 2012-07-12 at 01:58 PM.
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2012-07-12, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2011
Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Its not incidental, its the entirety of the argument.
Form's initial post, which you link, to is entirely correct, and its not misogynistic at all for him to say it. He's simply stating what the social mores are. You can disagree with those mores, but that doesn't make him repeating them a misogynistic act. He stated, in that post, that they're a double standard.
You escalated this. I think you need to step back, and realize that nobody has made any insulting comments or derogatory statements towards women. You insulted Form pretty much out of the blue. You've latched onto something that didn't happen.
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2012-07-12, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Castaras is from the U.K. and Serp is an Australian living abroad in the U.K. Neither strikes me as running in the same crowds as promise rings and purity balls.
The simple fact of the matter is this. Rejection stings. That's why, when profile review requests were common here, you saw enough people saying "you write first, I'm shy". (That these were indeed shy, nerdy guys kinda underscored how ridiculous the idea of this working out would be, but they were that afraid of trying and being rejected.)
Only difference is, girls can put off sticking their neck out there for longer. In lieu of using my own dirty language to explain, I'll let Wanda Sykes use hers.
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2012-07-12, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Dinosaur Museum aw yisss.
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Form: Alright, fine. If you insist, I shall critique your personal input seperately.Overall, your post is fine, especially when compared with the later responses. However, your wording betrays your biases.
"Are expected to be assertive" vs. "can afford a much more passive approach" bring in judgements, exactly as much as if I were to say "men get to take the initiative, while women have to be the passive object". Your wording says that these expectations work to female advantage and male disadvantage.
Your assumptions of frequency get some pass for the inclusion of the word "seems" - you take into account the possibility that you are mistaken. I, at least, suspect that although it probably is more likely that a guy will initiate a kiss, I believe it is far less "rare" than you think, especially in our sorts of circles (geeks and subcultures, I mean).
Your claim that men are usually the ones who are assertive when it comes to romances is an odd one, considering the way it goes so solidly against stereotype - how often are men heard to be lamenting about how they "can't get a good woman"? Probably more often than stereotype suggests, but still. In any case, in my experience your claim is completely false, at least depending on your definition of "assertive in seeking". In my experience, and that of others, although men tend to be the ones who make the official "will you go out with me?" jump, it is only after the woman supplies masses and masses of signals that he should do so - thus, although he is the one to make it "explicit", she is the one who initiated it. Yes yes, there's all those "but she's just playing games, why doesn't SHE go ahead and ask?" Well, personally speaking, it's because I prefer to skip that step entirely. Openly asking someone out makes me uncomfortable - to do and to have it done to me. But that's just me.
Then there's your mention of the "double standard". Your phrasing there is pretty neutral, but your wording at the start makes it clear that - unless drawn out to discuss it in more detail - you consider this a double standard against men, one in the favour of women. You also make no reference to the corresponding "it's wrong for women to be physically active in romantic initiation" double standard, which granted is probably not particularly relevant to the kissing discussion, but would have gone a long way towards mitigating the established (mild, granted) bias. This mention of the double standard of women is part of my complaint about accusing women of hypocrisy, but Pheehelm is far more responsible for that.
Synovia: No, it isn't. The "entirety of my argument" is NOT "but girls get called sluts!", but rather "you guys are making sweeping statements about all women, blaming them for social mores, accusing them of abusing them for their own gain, and suggesting that they are worth less as they get older". And for crying out loud, I'm not talking just about Form. Hell, until he forced me to actually address him directly he was at the bottom of my list. I'm talking much more about Dehro's "it's a seller's market", Pheehelm's "lol those stupid feminists doing supposedly anti-feminist things" and Reluctance's "old chicks will take what they can get".
edit: Oh, I should probably clarify. Form is still at the bottom of my list. The problems I have with that post are extremely mild, and merely contributory.Last edited by Serpentine; 2012-07-12 at 02:19 PM.
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2012-07-12, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2011
Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
Last edited by Synovia; 2012-07-12 at 02:21 PM.
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2012-07-12, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solut
@Serpentine..you are aware that protesting against sweeping statements and then addressing the remark to pretty much everybody without making due distinctions.. is a bit funny, right?