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2012-11-08, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
I was thinking about the Lucid Dreaming skill from MotP. I had several problems with it .It can't be used to do much in dreams beyond the superficial, it can be used as astoundingly easy assassination, and it forces you into a campaign world where dreaming is actually more like unconsciously Astral Projecting into a specific plane where stuff trends to be a bit odd. So, I asked around, and after I found that no fix existed,I made one myself.This can absolutely be communal thing, so if anybody has ideas for new functions, they are welcome.Lacking that, I'd like critique on my choice of DCs.
Here goes nothing!
(I'll edit it into a table when I get to am actual computer)
Lucid Dreaming (Cha):
{TABLE=head]Use|DC
Realize you are dreaming|15 *
Cause superficial/aesthetic change to dream|15*
Cause superficial/aesthetic change to dreamer|15*
Mimic spell effect modifying dream or dreamer|10+(spell level squared)
If you do not have a high enough score in the relevant casting stat to cast the spell|+(twice difference between your score and minimum)
If you do not have any levels in a class that can cast the spell|+10[/TABLE]
*Anybody with at least one rank in this skill and at least a +5 modifier to it can take 10 on this check in situations which normally allow taking 10.
When one realizes that they are in a dream, they are no longer bound to following along with it as they normally would.
Attempting to alter another dreamer or their dream against their will requires winning a contested Lucid Dreaming check. The one attempting to not be changed gets a +5 insight bonus to this check in that case.
Damage taken in a lucid dream manifests on waking as nonlethal damage equal to one-third the amount of lethal damage taken in the dream. Death in a lucid dream manifests as immediate waking, nonlethal damage equal to half the dreamers max HP, and two points of Cha burn (this overwrites the normal effect of taking damage in a lucid dream).
Taking 10: No in most cases, but see *.
Use Untrained: Yes, but only for things marked with a *, and for opposing someone else's attempt to change you.
Synergies: Sense Motive, BluffLast edited by Qwertystop; 2012-11-17 at 01:35 PM.
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2012-11-08, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
This looks good on the whole. I have only two comments at present: first, you should specifically call out that being damaged in a lucid dream has consequences for restful sleep (i.e., you lose an hour of sleep, for spellcasters, or something of that nature), and there should be a larger penalty for being "killed" in a lucid dream.
Secondly, the synergy with Forgery is odd; I would expect Bluff to work better, since you're not writing anything down.Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
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2012-11-09, 01:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
Depending on the nature of dreams within the campaign, I would also add in higher checks that allow for accessing communal dreams, interacting with Dream, and otherwise messing with dreams with your companions.
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2012-11-09, 05:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
Absolutely.
Many times In literature/movies, getting killed in a manipulated dream is potentially lethal, or at least something that can scar you for life.
Repeated manipulation, OTOH, should raise the DC significantly and have reduced consequences, because the target becomes experienced in this kind of manipulation.
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2012-11-09, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
A far as restful sleep, what about dividing damage by health and getting that fraction less sleep?
On the note of synergies, I suppose that does sort of fit better. Fixing now.
Hmmm... Problem with that its it locks you right back into the dreaming-is-its-own-plane interpretation that I wanted to avoid. Maybe a Bard spell to go into someone else's dream that can be cast from inside the dream?
What do you think about making it ability drain instead of damage? Or possibly burn?
And... Did you just request that the skill get weaker and harder to use the more you use it? I'm not going to redo the Truenamer, here.
Edit: clarified what happens if you try to change someone else.Last edited by Qwertystop; 2012-11-09 at 08:33 AM.
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2012-11-09, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
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2012-11-09, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
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2012-11-10, 01:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
I like this as a starting point, but I feel as if all the DCs except the first one ought to be 5 higher. Lucid dreaming is a very rare thing; I've done it precisely thrice, and I was never able to make any changes to the dreamscape during those episodes, so I suspect it's more difficult - knowing you're dreaming just involves becoming aware, while changing anything requires enforcing your will over your perceptions and thus is akin to disbelieving a high-level illusion (with your subconscious as the caster, so it'd be vaguely as if you were possessed by a demon that was casting illusions on your own eyes which it disbelieves while looking out through them).
I also think there's a problem with the fact that the nonlethal damage on awakening is incapable of killing someone, even if they have a heart condition or the like. Use of lucid dreaming as an assassination effort should be almost impossible, but not inherently defined by the system as completely so. I'd go for something like "roll the target's Hit Dice as nonlethal damage; if reduced to 0, the target fails to awaken. Make a Will save 5 minutes later to wake up; if you fail, you slip into a coma. While comatose, make a Fortitude save; on a failure you die." Something along those lines. The probability of death is extremely low, but if you spammed this effect nightly you'd have a chance of it eventually working, especially if you targeted people who appeared frail or weak-willed.
The problem is just that Bluff already has three full synergies and a conditional one attached to it; I'd be happier not having it become more of a god-skill. Perhaps Knowledge: Psionics or Concentration instead?
To the extent where this is far too much of a cliche, IMO. Reality suggests that there is little evidence for this, and so I disfavor the idea of making it too reliable, as it breaks suspension of disbelief.
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2012-11-10, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-10, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
Should it even be its own skill? It sounds like it could just be a sub-set of Autohypnosis.
Another possible application: defeat a Nightmare spell.Resident Vancian Apologist
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2012-11-10, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
While I get it's a difficult thing, remember how much a single skill point can do in some cases. Jump, for example. Or Knowledge - even half a skill point brings you from "only knows common-knowledge stuff" to "might know something up to DC 20 or more, with luck". Five points in Ride, for someone with completely average Dexterity, allows them to not fall out when the horse rears unexpectedly, and to guide the horse, not just without reins, but without hands.
I also think there's a problem with the fact that the nonlethal damage on awakening is incapable of killing someone, even if they have a heart condition or the like. Use of lucid dreaming as an assassination effort should be almost impossible, but not inherently defined by the system as completely so. I'd go for something like "roll the target's Hit Dice as nonlethal damage; if reduced to 0, the target fails to awaken. Make a Will save 5 minutes later to wake up; if you fail, you slip into a coma. While comatose, make a Fortitude save; on a failure you die." Something along those lines. The probability of death is extremely low, but if you spammed this effect nightly you'd have a chance of it eventually working, especially if you targeted people who appeared frail or weak-willed.
The problem is just that Bluff already has three full synergies and a conditional one attached to it; I'd be happier not having it become more of a god-skill. Perhaps Knowledge: Psionics or Concentration instead?
That too.
Subset? No. While it might sort of fit, Autohypnosis is good enough as a utility skill as-is without adding more.
Defeating a Nightmare? That's a good use. How should I scale the DC to the caster level, do you think?
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2012-11-11, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
Here's an idea I had for getting into other people's dreams:
Dreamshare
Bard 3
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 10 feet per two caster levels
Target: One creature per two caster levels
Duration: Eight hours or see text
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell can be cast either awake or from in a lucid dream. If it is cast while awake, it has it's "from inside a lucid dream" effect, but delayed until the caster and at least one target fall asleep. When cast from inside a lucid dream, the caster and all targets (targets are chosen from people sleeping within range in reality, not from dream-figments) join a communal dream (and are lucid while in that dream). This is basically the same as any other lucid dream except that there are multiple actual people present in it.
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2012-11-12, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
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Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
Attempting to alter another dreamer or their dream against their will requires winning a contested Lucid Dreaming check. The one attempting to not be changes gets +5 to this check in that case.
For example:
Attempting to alter another dreamer or its dream against its will requires winning a contested Lucid Dreaming check. The one attempting not to be changed gains a +5 Insight bonus to this check in that case.
DebbyP.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
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2012-11-12, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-12, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
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2012-11-12, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
In response to what willpell mentioned, the rate of lucidity varies from person to person. For example, most of my dreams (that I remember) are lucid, although I have never been able to successfully change anything. If anything, it makes my nightmares even more terrifying, as I know that logic can't help me, and that I can never entirely outrun the monster.
With that over with, I like these rules, simple and efficient. I'm assuming that for the most part spell duplication isn't all that necessary, as most effects can fall under 'cause significant chance to dream.'Homebrew:
Misc:
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2012-11-12, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
Actually, I was considering removal "cause significant change", because there's such a wide variety of possible changes that it seems a bit off to give all of it one static DC. I was just going to put in a few specific DCs for the more typical changes like creating objects, and leave it to "create spell effect" otherwise.
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2012-11-13, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
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Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
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2012-11-17, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)
Um... It doesn't come from having the skill (Though I did make it Insight). It comes from the inherent instability of the fact that (at least in my interpretation) it's easier to stop yourself from changing than to change somebody else (Hence Insight - you know yourself). The skill can be used untrained for minor effects and defending yoursel-
Oh. I forgot to put that bit in, didn't I.
Yep. Oops.
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On another note, the class I was doing this rework for is... Well, it's nowhere near complete, but it is public. Here.Last edited by Qwertystop; 2012-11-17 at 01:36 PM.