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2010-06-21, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
I don't know about you, but I'm perfectly happy for my opponent to use anti-tank weapons on my Infantry.
At that speed (12 inches) however both vehicles will be firing the same weapon with their machine spirit (the assault cannon) and nothing else fires so the other weapons do not matter until you are within assault range.
also if you wish to use the cannon to fire at what you assault than you simply must pivot and exit the tank from the side so that the cannon is facing forward.
And in that case, what's the point in having two cannons? Flamers fail pretty hard at shooting straight ahead. If you're turning to fire every time, what's the point of having both cannons if you can just pivot 170 degrees (an LR is AV14 all 'round so it doesn't matter) and fire one anyway?
The other thing that people aren't realising, is that Flamestorms kill things. Yes. Congrats. You've seen the AP3 Template weapon. Great. You've killed the whole unit, they've taken a Morale check and run (or Marines used Combat Tactics and laughed at your Terminators), or your opponent is clever and removes his models from the front of the unit taking you out of Assault range.
The Crusader softens targets for you to Assault. The Redeemer bakes units and lets them run away so you can't Assault leaving your Terminators in the cold.
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2010-06-21, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
It is less about the dedicated anti tank weapons firing and more about the single heavy in a unit having to fire at the tank wasting the rest of the units weapons. Obviously this is the last weapons used by your opponent but for every unit which does not fire its main weapons the better (but than again most LR are all about the same as fire magnets)
true enough but than how often do you run terminators at 8 men strong? It seems like a very heavy point sink to me.
This is due to the way you put the LR together
with a redeemer, in my opinion, you should mount the cannons to the rear this allows you to conga line anyone getting out without blocking fireing arc to the side. You only loos a little (I belive its about an inch max) of range to the front but the redeemer was already bad at forward firing and should focus on side firing (at 2 units when it can)
I will actually 100% agree with you here as the potential waste and thus the reason I love the new baal with its 1 cannon.
However after dropping off its cargo the hope would be that you can surround your land raider with enemy on both sides since you can fire both directions (thanks to the machine spirit) however not always the case in which case the other cannon is indeed wasted. But IMHO 1 cannon shot is better than 12 bolter shots due to higher AP, ignores cover and higher str
so what you are saying here is that the one is ineffective at anything but transport and the other is too good at being something besides an expensive transport?
If you manage to kill things with the bolters you will run into the same problems you do with the flamers i.e. taking models away to stop the assault or breaking so again not really "softening"
also unless your opponent is playing a very spread out army or a very model poor army more often then not 2 units will be close to eachother and the redeemer can cook one (like you say and break em or kill em) and the other can be stomped by the contents. If you are commiting the raider and its contents to kill 1 unit than ether the 1 unit can take the pain of the flamer or you would have been better served deepstriking or using another unit to deal with the target.Check out my horrible homebrews
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2010-06-21, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
7 Terminators and Lysander/Chaplain?
15 Blood Claws and Wolf Guard? (Yes. It totally is the same thing.)
...Often enough that I feel the need to point it out.
I will actually 100% agree with you here as the potential waste and thus the reason I love the new baal with its 1 cannon.
However after dropping off its cargo the hope would be that you can surround your land raider with enemy on both sides since you can fire both directions (thanks to the machine spirit) however this is never the case in which case the other cannon is indeed wasted.
so what you are saying here is that the one is ineffective at anything but transport and the other is too good at being something besides an expensive transport?
If you manage to kill things with the bolters you will run into the same problems you do with the flamers i.e. taking models away to stop the assault or breaking so again not really "softening"
also unless your opponent is playing a very spread out army
If you are commiting the raider and its contents to kill 1 unit than ether the 1 unit can take the pain of the flamer or you would have been better served deepstriking or using another unit to deal with the target.
Except Black Templars and cheesed Blood Angels armies.
The only reason people use Land Raiders is to transport Hammernators, and then throw those as the biggest unit they can find. Flamestorms will most likely be useless. As will Boltguns. But, the Crusader has a larger Transport Capacity. Which is what you want in a Transport.
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2010-06-21, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
this being the case baring the need for the larger capacity (which you did indeed give a few good examples) why would you ever run the crusader over any of the other variants. The normal one at least has a chance of killing tanks (not a good one but its better than not killing much if anything with bolters) and the Redeemer is effective vs troops.
From this back and forth it seems to me the Land Raider breakdown if you actually want to take one is
Crusader- Only if you will use the larger capacity
Redeemer- if you want a very strong/fast (since you are only using 1 flamestorm why not move 12 inches) fire support after dropping things off
Land Raider- Only if its the only kind you have.Check out my horrible homebrews
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2010-06-21, 07:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Sounds about right. But, to me, the Redeemer still feels like a waste. I guess mostly because if you've built your army right, you shouldn't really need the Flamestorms. I mean, you don't need the bolters either...
As much as I love them, and I hate to say it, you don't really need Land Raiders at all...
x2 Vindicators. For cheaper.
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2010-06-21, 07:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Check out my horrible homebrews
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2010-06-21, 08:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
The redeemer is at least slightly cheaper points wise.
"that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss" - At The Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft
When a man decides another's future behind his back, it is a conspiracy. When a god does it, it's destiny.
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2010-06-22, 04:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-06-22, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Throwing together some blood angels lists:
1000 point:
SpoilerGabriel Seth 160
Honour Guard (5) 195
Razorback (Extra Armor, HK Missile, Heavy Flamers)
Furioso Dreadnought 175
Librarian (Wings of Sanguinius, Might of Heroes)
Sanguinary Priest 75
Jump Pack
Assault Squad (5) 140
Power Fist, Infernus Pistol
Scout Squad (10) 150
Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
Death Company (3) 105
Jump Packs
----
1000 points
1500 Points
SpoilerGabriel Seth 160
Honour Guard (5) 195
Razorback (Extra Armor, Heavy Flamers)
Furioso Dreadnought 175
Librarian (Wings of Sanguinius, Might of Heroes)
Assault Terminators (5) 210
2x Thunder Hammer, 3x Lightning Claws
Sanguinary Priest 75
Jump Pack
Sanguinary Priest 85
Terminator Armour
Assault Squad (5) 140
Power Fist, Infernus Pistol
Scout Squad (10) 150
Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
Death Company (3) 105
Jump Packs
Stormraven Gunship 215
Extra Armour
----
1500 points
Both the lists are pretty much the same- my main concern would be not having enough troops. I guess I could drop the Death Company for another Assault Squad, and use the Jump Pack Sanguinary Priest where he'll affect both squads. The idea of the Stormraven in the 1500 list is to move in, drop off the Dreadnought and the Terminators and proceed to cleave faces in.Last edited by Gauntlet; 2010-06-22 at 05:50 AM.
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2010-06-22, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Rightio.
SpoilerGabriel Seth 160
Honour Guard (5) 195
Razorback (Extra Armor, HK Missile, Heavy Flamers)
Furioso Dreadnought 175
Librarian (Wings of Sanguinius, Might of Heroes)
Sanguinary Priest 75
Jump PackAssault Squad (5) 140
Power Fist, Infernus Pistol
Scout Squad (10) 150
Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
Death Company (3) 105
Jump Packs
In 1000 points you should be looking at 3 Scoring Units. You have two. And one is minimum-size.
1500 Points
SpoilerHonour Guard (5) 195
Razorback (Extra Armor, Heavy Flamers)
Assault Terminators (5) 210
2x Thunder Hammer, 3x Lightning Claws
Sanguinary Priest 75
Jump Pack
Sanguinary Priest 85
Terminator Armour
Assault Squad (5) 140
Power Fist, Infernus Pistol
Scout Squad (10) 150
Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
Death Company (3) 105
Jump Packs
"GG man, GG."
Stormraven Gunship 215
Extra Armour
Like the Monolith, people are in fits on whether Melta Bombs work 'properly' on Stromravens...They do, by the way.
Melta Bombs have +2d6 Penetration, not 1d6+1d6 like normal Melta weapons. Melta Bombs don't roll 'extra' d6. "RAWr!"
Both the lists are pretty much the same- my main concern would be not having enough troops.
Also, any decent shooting army, or, in fact any army that makes use of METAL BAWKSES wont be pleasant for you. Your army has expensive single models and low unit numbers.
Secondly, any other dedicated close combat army (which are probably just as fast as you) will have fun against you. The only unit you've got that stand up to any Assault punishment is the Terminators, and even they can be defeated by superior numbers and/or Power Weapons.
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2010-06-22, 07:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
I'm not sure the terminator priest is worth it. He's only giving you furious charge, since feel no pain is pretty useless on terminators. Give your terminators all hammers and he won't be worth it at all.
But maybe that's just the black templar player with his crap storm shields and 3 point furious charge upgrade talking.
You also have one priest per squad (excepting death company who don't need one) when you can usually keep two squads in the range of one priest.
Its boring, but its probably best to go "all in rhinos and razorbacks" or "all wearing jump packs" rather than a mix. Most armies are a mix of anti tank and anti infantry, so you're basically just giving everything in your enemy's army its perfect target.Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2010-06-22 at 07:34 AM.
"that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss" - At The Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft
When a man decides another's future behind his back, it is a conspiracy. When a god does it, it's destiny.
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2010-06-22, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
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2010-06-22, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
... Am I missing something why is FNP a waste? It may not be usable vs high ap weapons (which they will sure be hit with) however it makes volume which is also an option vs such units nearly pointless thanks to half of the few shots which make it through pointless.
I will say it is not worth the points in those lists at those points (or at least the T armor is not)Check out my horrible homebrews
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2010-06-22, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
The better players wont bother with Volume as its not going to work. You know it's not going to work, they know it's not going to work. I've seen Orks - plus a Nob with Klaw - make 50 attacks against 5 Terminators and not make a single casualty. Twice.
...Just shoot pie plates at Terminators. Leave 'volume shooting' for something that you can at least kill. Most lists should have a guarantee Terminator-killer unit (I really hope I'm not that far out of everyone's league here...).
Hammernators are slightly harder to kill, but the same principles apply. It's better to force 3+ saves than let them have their 2+ saves.
I will say it is not worth the points in those lists at those points (or at least the T armor is not)
...Oh, wait...There's only one Assault Squad in the list...Wouldn't it be great if there was a second one?
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2010-06-22, 08:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Disagreeing the hell out of this. Statistically, the Boyz should have killed three. I've had a squad of Lootas shoot at Terminators, kill three and have an empty Trukk chase them off the board. I've had five Meganobs kill two Terminators. With shooting.
Volume works, if you have enough of it. Your dice are just as likely to roll a 1 as a 6. Siege Shields on Vindicators are seen as practically mandatory.I am the golden shadow. I am the Ninja Chocobo
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Spoiler
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2010-06-22, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
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2010-06-22, 09:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Statistics matter. If they didn't, Terminators wouldn't cost more than Tac squads.
Also, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data". I've rolled three ones on 5 dice. Does that mean I've got a 60% chance of rolling a one?
e: The other two were twos. OMG IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO ROLL A 3+
You're still rolling a 1, 1/6 of the time. That's not trivial.Last edited by Ninja Chocobo; 2010-06-22 at 09:10 AM.
I am the golden shadow. I am the Ninja Chocobo
Avatar by me.
My other avatars.
The rest of my signature.
Spoiler
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2010-06-22, 09:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
They do, and they don't. As I've said multiple times, statistics implies order. Card Games, for example, there's a finite number of cards in the deck, if you know how many cards have been taken out, and, if you know what those 'taken out' cards actually are, you can predict what the next card will be.
The only true chance in a deck of cards is the first card. It's why casinos really don't like you counting cards.
(Of course now casinos use two or three decks at once and get new deck/s for almost every game because they specifically don't want you counting cards.)
Dice...Are Chance. You can't tell someone what they're going to roll. You can make an educated guess, but you're still going to come up trip-1s on the To Wound roll for your Krak Rockets.
Lies. Damn Lies. Statistics.
You want to know why number crunchers lose (and then cry about how stuff should have happened)? It's because Statistics and 40K don't really mix. They might be in the same room. But, they really, really hate each other. Sometimes they fight, and 40K goes down to the shop for some cigarettes and doesn't come back for days.
I've rolled three ones on 5 dice. Does that mean I've got a 60% chance of rolling a one?
The other two were twos. OMG IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO ROLL A 3+
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2010-06-22, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
I've gotta agree with not trusting statistics in 40k, seeing as I'm coming off of a game where a single squad of Termies made six of those 5+ invulns in a row and managed to explode my Vindicator with a single krak missile in the first turn.
Terminators are the devil! The devil I say!
That really depends on your dice, seeing as most 40k players don't have well-balanced ones, preferring tins of small, shoddy craftsmanship and hoping that the God Emperor prevents their comeuppance.
Funnily enough, he never does.*Splendid Goatatar by that cool kid Serpentine
"Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world"
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2010-06-22, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
We've had this statistics discussion far too many times. Cheesegear uses it, but uses it via experience rather then empirically, but won't admit it. Everyone else seems to use it directly and it works, so long as you know statistics isn't a guarantee but a likelihood.
As for volume fire against terminators, thats about all I use. I don't have much for AP1/2 in my army, and my banshees usually have too much to do to worry about a small unit of terminators, so I shoot them until they die from it. It usually doesn't take that much. In fact, behind the land raider, terminators seem to be the most overrated unit in the game. (land raiders here aren't, but overall they seem to be) I usually enjoy terminator heavy opponents because it means I have fewer units to deal with, and the fewer units, the easier things get.
Oh, and I have to say, I liked the old title better. I'm disappointed that it was changed considering that most people in the previous thread seemed to like it but it was changed just because someone didn't like it as much.
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2010-06-22, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Indeed. What annoys me most is 'Should have done X' talk. As if you can tell dice what to. But, yes, most of my 'statistics' comes from experience, and I'd rather not waste 20+ Orks on 5 Terminators if I had the choice.
They might kill 3 Terminators off 50 Attacks. But, those 50 attacks would be better spent elsewhere.
In fact, behind the land raider, terminators seem to be the most overrated unit in the game. (land raiders here aren't, but overall they seem to be) I usually enjoy terminator heavy opponents because it means I have fewer units to deal with, and the fewer units, the easier things get.
Most people use Terminators as a Brick unit. Which they function quite well as. But, there are other things that can beat them at it.
I'm disappointed that it was changed considering that most people in the previous thread seemed to like it but it was changed just because someone didn't like it as much.
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2010-06-22, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
If there were more complaints when I changed it...But there wasn't. I can change it back anytime...thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2010-06-22, 10:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
In defence of statistics, you cannot escape it. You will use it every game. You will shoot that termie unit instead of the scouts in cover with the plasma because you know statistically it will reap the greatest result. Stop running.
And then you will roll a one to wound because you doubted its power!
As for the title, the Tabletop change makes sense, but I hope we can change the witty slogan to one of the ones people enjoyed in the last thread, like "Waaagh! Uh, what is it good for?" or even a DoW one about THE EMPRAH!
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2010-06-22, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-06-22, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Yeah, but, that's common sense, rather than statistics. You don't need statistics to figure out that S7, AP2 is better than S4, AP5. However, I'm not prepared to say how much more effective a Plasmagun is over a Bolter. I'm not prepared to say how many casualties I should get.
I acknowledged that statistics has it's place. But, I also know that 40K doesn't play averages and when you most need a 2+, you'll roll a one. Because Chance plays a greater roll than Statistics.
Or, because Tzeentch hates you and laughs at your 'statistical averages' and then watches you lose because of that exact dice roll...Just as Planned.
I hope we can change the witty slogan to one of the ones people enjoyed in the last thread, like "Waaagh! Uh, what is it good for?" or even a DoW one about THE EMPRAH!
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2010-06-22, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Actualy, as an ex-MTG player, statistics can still screw you in a deck of cards.
I've seen tournaments won and lost because a player started with a good hand, and then his/her deck just decided to literally backstab them by providing the remaining cards on the completely wrong order despite the chance of it hapening being under 1%.
But one still uses statistics to build their decks, despite knowing you can easily end up mana screwed.
Same with 40K. You know those plasmas will kill termies more regularly than normal bolters.
Statistics are more of a devil pact when you're in the brink of death. It will backstab you sooner or later, but it's still your best path to power and victory.
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2010-06-22, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Warhammer 40K Tactics VII: Statistics are for the WEAK!
Edit: Also, thanks for the list review, I'll throw up something updated some tomorrow (later today?)Last edited by Gauntlet; 2010-06-22 at 06:10 PM.
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2010-06-22, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Ah, I remember this thread. It's the area I used to go to, where I would bug Warhammer players with questions.
So, I present another question. I was playing Dawn of War II today, as the Eldar. And I noticed how awesome they were, especially the Wraithguards. Does anyone here who knows Eldar know how to make an effective army while implenting the Wraith units (Wraithlords and Wraithguards)?Dr, Bath's Dolly!
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2010-06-22, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- ^ Creds to Lord Raziere
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
Erm....
HQ
Avatar of Khaine - 155 Points
Troops
Wraithguard x10 - 375 Points
- Spirit Seer
Wraithguard x10 - 375 Points
- Spirit Seer
Heavy Support
Wraithlord - 125 Points
- Flamers x2
- Wraithsword
- Eldar Missile Launcher
Wraithlord - 110 Points
- Flamers x2
- Wraithsword
- Shuriken Cannon
Wraithlord - 110 Points
- Flamers x2
- Wraithsword
- Shuriken Cannon
Total: 1250 Points
YOU WILL HAVE NO FRIENDS, EVER.
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2010-06-22, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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