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Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XXXIV. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".
Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:
Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.
32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.
Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em. This comes up often enough to bear mention in the rules: Dragon Compendium is allowed.
Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT on Saturday, June 30th, 2012 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Amphetryon. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59PM GMT on Saturday, July 14th, 2012 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.
Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.
Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points. Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not.
Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.
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NAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]
Level|
Class|
Base Attack Bonus|
Fort Save|
Ref Save|
Will Save|
Skills|
Feats|
Class Features
1st|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
2nd|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
3rd|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
4th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
5th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
6th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
7th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
8th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
9th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
10th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
11th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
12th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
13th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
14th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
15th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
16th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
17th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
18th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
19th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
20th|New Class Level|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|
+x
|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]
Code
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[b]NAME OF ENTRY[/b]
{table=head][b]Level[/b]|[b]Class[/b]|[b]Base Attack Bonus[/b]|[b]Fort Save[/b]|[b]Ref Save[/b]|[b]Will Save[/b]|[b]Skills[/b]|[b]Feats[/b]|[b]Class Features[/b]
1st|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
2nd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
3rd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
4th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
5th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
6th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
7th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
8th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
9th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
10th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
11th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
12th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
13th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
14th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
15th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
16th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
17th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
18th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
19th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
20th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]
For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)
Spoiler
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Spells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]
Level|
0lvl|
1st|
2nd|
3rd|
4th|
5th|
6th|
7th|
8th|
9th
1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]
Code
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[b]Spells per day/Spells Known[/b]
{table=head][b]Level[/b]|[b]0lvl[/b]|[b]1st[/b]|[b]2nd[/b]|[b]3rd[/b]|[b]4th[/b]|[b]5th[/b]|[b]6th[/b]|[b]7th[/b]|[b]8th[/b]|[b]9th[/b]
1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]
For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.
So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!
This week's special ingredient is:
Dungeon Master's Guide's Dragon Disciple
We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.
Allez optimiser!
Contestants
Judges
The Builds
Past Competitions
Iron Chef I: Entropomancer
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord
Iron Chef V: War Chanter
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo
Iron Chef XII: War Mind
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
FAQ:
Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes, but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.
What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.
Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Similarly, materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.
What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.
Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.
What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Amphetryon is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.
What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.
So, um, about that 10th level? According to (some would say silly) RAW verbiage in Complete Warrior, Dragon Disciple hits an unending disqualification/qualification loop when entering 10th level, as they become Half-Dragons, momentarily disqualifying them from the PrC that turned them into Half-Dragons. While amusing as heck, this loop - which some call Schrödinger's Apotheosis - should be wholly ignored for purposes of this contest. It's better for everyone's sanity.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
I actually might compete in this one, I've always like dragon disciple. Do we rule that we don't get an LA +3 from taking all 10 levels though?
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Soranar
I actually might compete in this one, I've always like dragon disciple. Do we rule that we don't get an LA +3 from taking all 10 levels though?
Of course we do. :smallsmile:
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Hmmm, I'm highly tempted to throw my hat into this... But on the other hand, I know I'm not going to win.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
O come on i got last place in my first challenge and I believe it only made me a better so that this time around I might place higher up. I'm putting finishing touches and fluff into one of my builds now then I'll be starting on another. I'm kind of scared of the first one, but know its not fully optimized so will be probably making two more builds that way I have a better chance, and saying I am not waiting for the last three days may even have more then three builds in.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amphetryon
Of course we do. :smallsmile:
Of course we do rule that way? Or of course we do get LA +3?
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Since I have been asking for DD for a while, I'm definitely going to try and get an entry in. I've had the bare bones of a DD build plotted out for a while now - time to flesh it out, write up the backstory, and format it into tables! :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zaq
Of course we do rule that way? Or of course we do get LA +3?
The question was whether we rule that we DON'T get the +3 LA. I said yes, we rule that we DON'T get the +3 LA. I'm not sure how my answer is read otherwise.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Last night I said to myself "I need a break after all that judging, I'll probably sit out of the next contest or two". But now I have a great idea. Why do I do this to myself :smallamused:
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
welp, I'm in. what's the status on trophies for rounds past?
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
I think I'm actually going to attempt a build here. Got a (hopefully) strong concept to work with.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Venger
welp, I'm in. what's the status on trophies for rounds past?
So far as I know, HunterKiller is still on the job.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
A lot of people around here talk about Dragon Disciple, so I know I won't do well on my first try, but hey, it's worth a shot. I'll try submitting a build...after coming up with something. Eventually. Dragon is not my favorite flavor.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Not the DD I was hoping for, maybe I will judge
Edit: @Kazyan I got second place with my first entry and I didn't think it would place given the quality of the entries, so it just goes to show give it a shot adn you might be surprised.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
I'm in. I have like 5 builds stored up that use this class. I promise I'll submit just one. :smallwink:
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zeb
Edit: @Kazyan I got second place with my first entry and I didn't think it would place given the quality of the entries, so it just goes to show give it a shot adn you might be surprised.
Thanks for the encoura--
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gbprime
I'm in. I have like 5 builds stored up that use this class. I promise I'll submit just one. :smallwink:
This is what I mean by the class being popular. :smallwink:
Putting together an ingredient list before I figure out how to cook this, if that makes any sense. This is pretty intellectually stimulating, actually.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
I am just about to put one post in and about to start work on my second which I already have the ingredients out and ready for.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
I have a wonderfully strong build I will share with all of you, that uses all 10 levels of the PrC, and all of its class features! (Well, Blindsense works kinda conditionally, but you know what? Shut up.)
So yeah, I'll be submitting something. And probably another couple builds too.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
I have a question about the class. The prestige class says the bite is the primary and the claws are the secondary at -5. the half-dragon template, however, says the opposite, with the claws being primary and the bite secondary, as is normally the case. which are we going with for the purposes of this contest?
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Venger
I have a question about the class. The prestige class says the bite is the primary and the claws are the secondary at -5. the half-dragon template, however, says the opposite, with the claws being primary and the bite secondary, as is normally the case. which are we going with for the purposes of this contest?
What the PrC says takes precedence when dealing with the PrC.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Sounds like there may be a lot of entries this round. :smalltongue:
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
One done, lets see how many more I can get in.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zeb
Not the DD I was hoping for, maybe I will judge
Death Delver? Deep Diviner? Devoted Defender? Diamond Dragon? Disciple (of) Dispater? Divine Disciple? Doomdreamer? Dragon Descendant? Dragon Devotee? Dungeon Delver? Dwarven Defender? :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Dragon Disciple eh, compared to the normal classes this one is practically wizard level. I'll try to put together an entry.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
i've got one nice idea that i'll write up; i might think of more too. This should be a fun contest.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
I have a wonderful idea for this. Oh lordy, this is going to be good.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Questions:
Quote:
Dragon Apotheosis: At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon (see above).
Quote:
So, um, about that 10th level? According to (some would say silly) RAW verbiage in Complete Warrior, Dragon Disciple hits an unending disqualification/qualification loop when entering 10th level, as they become Half-Dragons, momentarily disqualifying them from the PrC that turned them into Half-Dragons. While amusing as heck, this loop - which some call Schrödinger's Apotheosis - should be wholly ignored for purposes of this contest. It's better for everyone's sanity.
There are many differences between the benefits gained over the 10 levels of the class and the actual template. Are you saying above that the character takes on the template in addition to the abilities gained? that the template supersedes the other gains at 10th level? or something else? I've always assumed that the character doesn't actually inherit the template, but your "unending disqualification/qualification loop" seems to imply that you believe they do inherit the template and their type does change, etc. -- but then how does inheriting the template interact with all of the abilities they've already gained? You've got me very confused :P
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
This looks interesting, I'll have to toss up something good for this.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KoboldCleric
Questions:
There are many differences between the benefits gained over the 10 levels of the class and the actual template. Are you saying above that the character takes on the template in addition to the abilities gained? that the template supersedes the other gains at 10th level? or something else? I've always assumed that the character doesn't actually inherit the template, but your "unending disqualification/qualification loop" seems to imply that you believe they do inherit the template and their type does change, etc. -- but then how does inheriting the template interact with all of the abilities they've already gained? You've got me very confused :P
I'm at a loss to explain this any more clearly, assuming the tongue at the end isn't intended to indicate your query is facetious.
They gain EXACTLY what the text says. They gain all the benefits they've acquired over the course of 10 levels. They gain a full-strength breath weapon. They gain an additional +4 to STR at 10th level (as noted in the text; PLEASE don't try to parse this as my saying they get any bonuses from Dragon Disciple above and beyond those granted by the text). They gain an addional +2 to CHA (again, exactly as noted in the text). They gain a grand total of +4 in Natural Armor bonus. They gain Low-Light vision (assuming they didn't have it). They gain 60' Darkvision (assuming they didn't have it). They gain immunity to sleep and paralysis effects. They gain immunity to their breath weapon's energy type. They gain, per the verbiage of the PrC, all of these benefits AS THEY COMPLETE THE TRANSFORMATION into a Half-Dragon, and any differences you may perceive between a Half-Dragon who obtained the template by any other means are either incidental or accidental. The differences may well exist, making Dragon Disciples unusual examples of the Half-Dragon template, but examples nonetheless.
What DOES NOT happen is that acquiring the Half-Dragon template at 10th level spontaneously disqualifies the Dragon Disciple from entry into the PrC. Said disqualification would, in theory, immediately remove all benefits gained from the PrC, which would then make the Character eligible for the PrC, which would disqualify him, etc. That's literally ALL the clarification I put in the FAQ is intended to indicate. It's what I hope is a rational reading of the 10th level ability that prevents a ridiculous loop of qualifying and disqualifying the Character from the PrC BY VIRTUE OF TAKING THE PrC.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
My point is just that if they don't actually inherit the template then their race is still non-dragon and they are, as far as "race:" is concerned, not a half-dragon; therefore, there is no "unending disqualification/qualification loop".
But you've answered the question then: they don't gain the template, just the benefits as listed :)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
I think what he's asking is whether the benefits of the template supersede or stack with the template.
For example, the Dragon Disciple gains +4 Strength, two each at 2nd and 4th level. Then at 10th, they 'take on the half-dragon template' and '[gain] +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma'. The half-dragon template gives +8 Strength.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphetryon
They gain an additional +4 to STR at 10th level (as noted in the text; PLEASE don't try to parse this as my saying they get any bonuses from Dragon Disciple above and beyond those granted by the text).
Given a Dragon Disciple who had Strength 10 when he entered the class and put ability increases from leveling up into something else, does he finish with 18 Strength (because both the second-and-fourth-level bonuses and the 4-strength bonus described in the text for Dragon Apotheosis are part of the template bonus), 22 Strength (because the 4-strength bonus described in the text is part of the assumption of the template, but the bonuses from second and fourth level are not), or 26 Strength (because each piece of text describing a strength increase is entirely separate)?
Similar questions apply to Constitution, Intelligence, Charisma, and Natural Armor.
The text isn't entirely clear on this point, because it seems clear that at least some of the bonuses acquired from the class are meant to be superseded by the template, but others presumably are not given a ten-level class to acquire a three-LA template.
EDIT: ...or I could entirely have misinterpreted the question and it could be regarding race and prerequisites. Sorry about that.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Just to mention something:
By the wording of the capstone, you gain the Half-Dragon Template, AND you gain all the benefits of the capstone, namely the stat boosts and other fun stuff.
Also, what is your opinion on using alternate Dragon types from the 10 listed? I mean, you can have Half-Dragons for around 50 different dragons, so having only 10 is kinda eh, plus the ability itself says that you can have alternate types.
I would suggest that you can pick other dragon types that have a Breath weapon, and the damage remains the same (stuff like the Lungs and Shadow Dragons are kinda dicier; I would suggest not allowing them for the purposes of this contest.)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
I think I'll take another swing. It's gonna be fun trying to format the tables properly when my only regular internet access is through my wii. :smallamused:
edit: and by another swing, I mean as a contestant. :smalltongue:
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Dragon Disciple, hmm? I was afraid this day would come.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
I've got a build (actually three...so far, but I'll only submit my best).
Also, we may want to limit this particular competition to one entry per competitor or else we will end up with three dozen entries for this one. Dragon Disciple is a very popular PrC, partly due to its location and partly due to the sheer interestingness of it.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoboldCleric
But you've answered the question then: they don't gain the template, just the benefits as listed
When both the verbiage I quoted and I, myself, both specify they gain the Half-Dragon template that grants the specific, listed, benefits, how is that interpreted as NOT gaining the template, exactly? :smallconfused: What they don't gain is ADDITIONAL BENEFITS BESIDES THOSE SPECIFIED AS BONUSES BY THE PrC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amechra
Just to mention something:
By the wording of the capstone, you gain the Half-Dragon Template, AND you gain all the benefits of the capstone, namely the stat boosts and other fun stuff.
That would be true if the wording said "In addition to the template, you gain the following. . ." which it does not. This has been asked and answered in thread.
Quote:
Also, what is your opinion on using alternate Dragon types from the 10 listed? I mean, you can have Half-Dragons for around 50 different dragons, so having only 10 is kinda eh, plus the ability itself says that you can have alternate types.
The footnote in the PrC's breath weapon chart specifies that other Dragon types are allowed, so I won't restrict them. There's no mention whatsoever of additional benefits to those few Dragon types that have no Breath Weapon, though, so those would appear sub-optimal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallisti
For example, the Dragon Disciple gains +4 Strength, two each at 2nd and 4th level. Then at 10th, they 'take on the half-dragon template' and '[gain] +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma'. The half-dragon template gives +8 Strength.
That's not how it's written; the word "and" is not included in the same sentence specifying it gains the Half-Dragon template. There's a full stop (a period), followed by a delineation of the benefits gained at 10th level. When you change the way English is written, you change the meaning.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amphetryon
The footnote in the PrC's breath weapon chart specifies that other Dragon types are allowed, so I won't restrict them. There's no mention whatsoever of additional benefits to those few Dragon types that have no Breath Weapon, though, so those would appear sub-optimal.
Although not quite the same thing, Races of the Dragon (and, earlier, Draconomicon) has entries for different applications of the Half-Dragon template, including parents such as the Fang Dragon and the Lung Dragons.
Would contestants be allowed to use these alternate 'breath weapons' for their entries?
(Also, I'm not intending to compete this time. When my schedule gets a little clearer, I might find some time to judge, however).
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuulvheysoon
Although not quite the same thing, Races of the Dragon (and, earlier, Draconomicon) has entries for different applications of the Half-Dragon template, including parents such as the Fang Dragon and the Lung Dragons.
Would contestants be allowed to use these alternate 'breath weapons' for their entries?
(Also, I'm not intending to compete this time. When my schedule gets a little clearer, I might find some time to judge, however).
I'll say yes, but will also allow judges leeway in determining how Elegant such choices may be.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kestrel404
Also, we may want to limit this particular competition to one entry per competitor or else we will end up with three dozen entries for this one. Dragon Disciple is a very popular PrC, partly due to its location and partly due to the sheer interestingness of it.
I was thinking the same thing. Hence the reason I pledged to only enter once!
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
For Shadow Dragons (i.e., the only Dragon that has a breath weapon granted by half-Dragon that is not expressed in damage), would you just get the 1 Negative level when other dragon-types get their 6d10 damage? There really isn't a way to split it up...
Plus, does the capstone count as having the Template for purposes of prerequisites?
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
If I enter, I'll only enter once.
I have a few ideas, some of which seem quite good, but the problem is, they are all things I've seen done before, often more than half a decade ago. This ingredient is pretty well-worn territory, even more so than the Shadowdancer. I'll have to give this one some serious thought.....
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amechra
For Shadow Dragons (i.e., the only Dragon that has a breath weapon granted by half-Dragon that is not expressed in damage), would you just get the 1 Negative level when other dragon-types get their 6d10 damage? There really isn't a way to split it up...
Plus, does the capstone count as having the Template for purposes of prerequisites?
Yes. Also, yes.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Oh, god, there are going to be a lot of entries this time around. I don't think anything I can throw together will stand out, so I'll judge instead (something tells me we're not going to get lots of judges this time around). Criteria:
Spoiler
Show
Originality: This category has two main components; was your build similar to any of the other builds submitted, and was it similar to any well-known builds. In addition, I will penalize your build if it uses obvious tricks in obvious ways or well-known exploits in expected ways. Bonus points for things that haven't been thought of before (or at least with respect to the secret ingredient) and for using known tricks in unusual ways.
Power: How does your build stack up, power wise, to other builds focusing on similar objectives. Power in this category includes flexibility and versatility as well as straight combat power. This category will also measure power from level 1-20; a build will be penalized if it is excessively weak or unplayable at lower levels but ramps up later. Bonus points will be given if most or all of a build's power come from tricks involving the secret ingredient. I normally give a baseline to compare to in power, but I can’t really come up with one here. I’d consider the baseline in power to be something of a weak gish in this case, but can’t come up with a specific example (maybe something like hexblade?).
Elegance: The toughest category to judge and assess. Dipping will not be automatically penalized, but dipping that makes no thematic sense (taking 2 levels of fighter for the feats on a spellcasting class) will be. More importantly, the build should make sense at all levels, 1-20. Abilities that are useless at the level they are taken, but come on line later, will be penalized. Maintaining flavor and flow through the build will be rewarded, while taking out of place levels/abilities will be penalized. This is also the category that will see deductions for questionable use of rules/illegal builds. Expect points lost if you utilize something that most DMs would rule against. Special note: If you assume that you gain the half-dragon template in addition to the bonuses already offered, you will automatically be given a 1 in this category. I don’t care how you justify it, or how otherwise awesome your build is, you get a 1. Just don’t do it.
Use of the Secret Ingredient:Did you take all 10 levels? How many of the abilities granted did you use, and how essential are they to your build? Would your build be better off achieving its goal with another class, rather than the secret ingredient? Why would you use the SI, rather than just taking the half-dragon template (you don’t need to actually answer this question, just something to consider)?
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
For an ingredient that's so well studied, I didn't expect hours and hours of work to be necessary for it to behave. :smallannoyed: Now for assembly.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
First time around.. :smalleek:
I'll think I'll give it a shot... :smallcool:
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Might end up judging, the trick I had is proving harder to control then I anticipated.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
I'll throw my hat in as a tentative judge as well. I say tentative because if there really are some 50+ entries I'd need longer than 2 weeks, but as long as it stays around or under 30 I should be all right.
Spoiler
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Originality: fairly straightforward. Did you use the obvious entries? Does your build focus on using the "staple" class features in standard ways or do you use underappreciated features in wildly unexpected ways?
Power: does your use of DD fit into the power level of its entry? Does it compare to builds with a similar focus? Can it perform a vital party role adequately? Do the abilities you pick up make sense at the levels you get them?
Elegance: I'm not going to penalize dipping. I don't care how many classes you have on your character sheet; I care whether the dips you use are efficient and whether the abilities granted fit in with the character's archetype. (e.g. If your melee monstrosity dips cloistered cleric, that's fine. Explain why "turn undead" makes sense as an ability your character should have; explain how you intend to use "lore" to support your role and archetype.) Does the build have a theme through all levels? If it changes, why?
Use of Secret Ingredient: did you? why did you rather than using something else? Did you use all of it and all of its abilities? Is it the focus of your build the SI? Do the levels you take in DD make sense when you take them?
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
...Huh, I initially thought that there was no way to make a unique Dragon Disciple build that actually used all of the class abilities. I found one. For the first time, I think I'll be pitching my hat into the Iron Chef ring.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
@Thurbane
exhaustive list, and while I was referencing the first one I think all but two of those would be more interesting as a contestant.
That said I think I will try as a tentative judge.
Criteria
Spoiler
Show
Originality: this will be based on the originality of your chassis to enter the SI. If it was a common or easy way to get there less points, uncommon or surprising, more points. If I find in via Google a lot less points. Competition point If other entry's use your entry chassis expect to lose some points. As far as race anything goes, but if I have to read more than 3 of the same races who want to be dragons expect a small deduction. Also more points if your concept is cool/I like it.
Power: Base power is compared to your build if it didn't take the SI and instead I just clapped the Half-dragon template on. Does your build cover all the bases, offense, defense, utility? Competition point If another build does it better don't expect points, if your the best then points for you.
Elegance: So much here, is your entry readable, does it make sense, questionable rules use, excessive dipping, lack of focus, use of stinky cheese, and anything that leaves a poor taste in my mouth. Of course the normal deductions for UA set forth by the chairman.
Use of Secret Ingredient: Did you qualify? take all ten levels? make use of the abilities? Did you make it the star of the build? Does your Non-SI synergize with the SI?
Note illegal builds will automatically score below the lowest legal build, sorry even if its really cool.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
For some reason I'm pretty confident in myself on this. Hopefully my feats don't fall through on me though, that is what always kills me in the end.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
I finished with my build early, which probably means I made a mistake. Now to see if I can find a way to do this more interestingly before the deadline!
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Well done to the judges for volunteering, as this does look like it will be heavily contested. Can we extend the judging deadline this time around if we do get a large number of entries, as I don't think two weeks will be enough...
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
I have a concept, I'll see if I can flesh it out.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Hah! Everything finally fit together. Done and submitted. It will be interesting to see if anyone else went the same path.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
I'll be all over this. Oooh, yeah.
Count me in as a contestant.
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
I never really saw that much in the dragon disciple. I mean, why not just be a half dragon 3/Duskblade17?
Anyways, I'm confident that my build that it won't take dead last. Good luck everyone!
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_flint_
I never really saw that much in the dragon disciple. I mean, why not just be a half dragon 3/Duskblade17?
this. hence why it's an ingredient. :P
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIV
Lol no saying things that a person can be now flint I'm sure alot of people wouldn't like that.
Any ways in other news just got one more to go, saddly I forgot to send in one of the things for my character so Chairman may I send it to you now, its for the last one I just sent in dealing with the blank from the blank of the blank.