Warhammer 40K Tabletop XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"

[Hootman]

...Maybe. It depends on who you're going to play. On one hand, an Inquisitor (if you're only taking him for the 'Hood) is pretty useless against Necrons, Dark Eldar, and most Imperial Guard lists.

While a Thunderfire works wonders against Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard, and 'isn't that good' (but definitely not useless) against Space Wolves and Necrons. Tremor Shells never go out of style. Especially if you've got another two squads of Devastators anyway.

You know, I honestly hadn't considered that the Inquisitor would actually be useless against the armies I was looking to take on. I guess I'll ditch him at this point value, but that just gives me 90 points to spend elsewhere...

...

Which, very conveniently, would be enough for a Predator with Heavy Bolter sponsons, the general anti-infantry prowess of which may come in VERY handy against my upcoming foes. I mean, I've got a zillion missiles to deny WBB to Necrons and to get "2+ to wound, no save" against most monsterous creatures (as well as Marines), I can afford (and probably need) a little more tough anti-infantry.

This is a good plan. Probably. What do I spend my last 5 points on now, though?

EDIT: *FACEPALM* No, this is a stupid plan. With the 2 Devastator Units and the Thunderfire Cannon, I have no more Heavy Support choices left. Gyargh, why can't I use my Fast Attack or Elite slots for this...(aside from it obviously not being a Fast or Elite weapon)... >< I'll have to come up with another plan.

Whatever you decide to do Hootman, GOOD LUCK!!!!

Thanks! ^^

[Craftworld]

This is a good plan. Probably. What do I spend my last 5 points on now, though?

Do you have to buy smoke launchers? If not...a random fun upgrade for the lolz.

[Nameless Ghost]

Land Speeder Typhoons are 90 points exactly.

You could also buy your Devastators Razorbacks for anti-infantry purposes (and for hiding inside of on objectives when your Scouts are about to die). That would leave 10 points, which I'd use for Meltabombs, a Hunter-killer or Combi-weapons.

[Hootman]

Nope, smoke launchers come standard on all (or almost all) Codex: Space Marine vehicles, and none of the other upgrades are really worth anything. And, to top it off, I don't actually HAVE any vehicles in this list, aside from the Drop Pod, which barely counts (and probably doesn't have smokes).

Unfortunately I don't have another Land Speeder, or I'd definitely consider that. I don't have any more Scouts either, otherwise I'd just pop out another troops choice and call it a day. However, I'm really starting to like your other idea, Nameless; having some empty Razorbacks running around may be just what I need. Y'see, when I played Grey Knights over the weekend, my Sternguard got Mishap'd to the far end of the table and had to hoof it and died before they really got to the enemy, but with a pair of Razorbacks floating around, I could have run them over and picked up the boys (since you can Combat Squad out of a Pod) no problem. Of course, my Librarian would have been left behind...but maybe next time I'll just take the Gate of Infinity and not have to worry about it. Or just not drop into a Warp Quake'd zone, that would be good too.

...So, question, y'all: Does the Jamming Beacon on a Land Speeder Storm effect only enemy drops, or does it screw me too? It says that NO scatter-reducers work within 6", but then it also says that ENEMIES who try to Deep Strike within 6" scatter farther than normal. Is this exactly what it sounds like, that all Comm-units are jammed, but only enemies face active interference (and are thus the only ones thrown even further off course)? I wouldn't want to end up screwed if I happened to want to Drop Pod in right next to my own Storm.

[Nameless Ghost]

I can't see anything in the FAQ, so I'd assume that the Storm only hinders the enemy deep strikers.

As another side benefit, the Razors will help you deploy the Devastators during Dawn of War.

[Hootman]

As another side benefit, the Razors will help you deploy the Devastators during Dawn of War.

...Sold. You had me at "actually be able to do something right in a Dawn of War game instead of getting torn apart".

SO, anyways, enough weirdness. This is the list I'll be using on Saturday, unless anyone has any further suggestions!

Spoiler

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HQ
Librarian, 140pts
-Terminator Armor, Storm Shield
-Powers: Force Dome, Vortex of Doom

ELITES
Sternguard 10, 340pts
-Heavy Flamer, 9 Combi-meltas
+Drop Pod (with Librarian)

TROOPS
Scouts 10, 175pts
-Combat Squad A: 1 Sergeant with Powerfist, Shotgun, & Meltabombs, 3 Shotgunners, 1 CCW/Pistol (metal model, can't fix)
-Combat Squad B: 4 Snipers, 1 Missile Launcher

Scouts 10, 150pts
-Snipers, 1 Missile Launcher

Scouts 10, 150pts
-Snipers, 1 Missile Launcher

FAST ATTACK
Land Speeder Storm, 60pts
-Heavy Flamer
-Contains Scout Combat Squad A

HEAVY SUPPORT
Devastators 5, 190pts
-4 Missile Launchers
+Razorback

Devastators 5, 190pts
-4 Missile Launchers
+Razorback

Thunderfire Cannon, 100pts


TOTAL: 1500 points.

Looking good, as far as I can tell. Now, I more or less know how to fight Necrons (take out any Destroyers first, and preferably Wraiths as well, then use Double-Strength on things if possible to keep them from getting back up), but what do people suggest I do about Dark Eldar, if I face them? I know their vehicles are made of paper, and they are really dangerous at short range with their poison weapons and at least one crazy assault unit (Incubi, I think?). And they have a pair of monsterous creatures. I've only faced Dark Eldar once before, and they steamrolled me with the Webway Portal.

[Arcanoi]

...Sold. You had me at "actually be able to do something right in a Dawn of War game instead of getting torn apart".

SO, anyways, enough weirdness. This is the list I'll be using on Saturday, unless anyone has any further suggestions!

Spoiler

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HQ
Librarian, 140pts
-Terminator Armor, Storm Shield
-Powers: Force Dome, Vortex of Doom

ELITES
Sternguard 10, 340pts
-Heavy Flamer, 9 Combi-meltas
+Drop Pod (with Librarian)

TROOPS
Scouts 10, 175pts
-Combat Squad A: 1 Sergeant with Powerfist, Shotgun, & Meltabombs, 3 Shotgunners, 1 CCW/Pistol (metal model, can't fix)
-Combat Squad B: 4 Snipers, 1 Missile Launcher

Scouts 10, 150pts
-Snipers, 1 Missile Launcher

Scouts 10, 150pts
-Snipers, 1 Missile Launcher

FAST ATTACK
Land Speeder Storm, 60pts
-Heavy Flamer
-Contains Scout Combat Squad A

HEAVY SUPPORT
Devastators 5, 190pts
-4 Missile Launchers
+Razorback

Devastators 5, 190pts
-4 Missile Launchers
+Razorback

Thunderfire Cannon, 100pts


TOTAL: 1500 points.

Consider dropping Combat Squad B from your first Scout squad to give the Razorbacks Lascannons and TL Plasmas.

[Cheesegear]

A Psychic Hood will throw Psyker Battle Squads into the Warp because those are one of the most broken things in the game and they are run in a lot of high up (GT IG lists).

Err...Let's take a look...

Psyker Battle Squad...T3, 5+ save. Max range 36".

Yeah. That's first-turn Thunderbait. If you can't kill a unit like that with a Thundercheese Cannon (from up to 60" away, even), you don't deserve to have one.

But what about the Chimera they ride in?
Well, as I've already factored in, Hootman is already running two units of Devastators.

Due to it's 60" range, the only thing a Thunderfire is worried about from Guardsmen are Colossi which I almost never see, because of their S6 Ordnance (roll a '4' on 2d6) and ability to negate your Techmarine's 3+ cover save.


EDIT:
Oh. Oh wow. Guess who's coming to GD Australia?
Phil Kelly. My life is complete.
Graham McNeil. ...Hold on, I just wet myself.
Anothony Reynolds. Squeals like a pre-teen girl. I don't know if I've told you guys ten or eleven times, but his Word Bearers series is my favourite set of 40K novels around... And he wrote the Knights of Bretonnia series which is actually one of my favourite fantasy series, ever.
Matthew Farrer. The guy who wrote Enforcer!? My other favourite set of books!?

...Here's the bad news; I'm not going to GD Australia. ...Excrement. Excrement, excrement, excrement.

[Razaele]

...Huh. I just re-read the FAQ and realized that units riding in transport Skimmers that go flat out and get shot down don't get killed.

Ugh. And all this time I wasn't using Storm Ravens because I always thought that moving them flat out was too risky. Guess I'll have to rethink the way I look at Storm Ravens.

[Tarinaky]

...Huh. I just re-read the FAQ and realized that units riding in transport Skimmers that go flat out and get shot down don't get killed.

Ugh. And all this time I wasn't using Storm Ravens because I always thought that moving them flat out was too risky. Guess I'll have to rethink the way I look at Storm Ravens.

You can paradrop out of a Stormraven anyway.

[Timberwolf]

...Huh. I just re-read the FAQ and realized that units riding in transport Skimmers that go flat out and get shot down don't get killed.

Ugh. And all this time I wasn't using Storm Ravens because I always thought that moving them flat out was too risky. Guess I'll have to rethink the way I look at Storm Ravens.

Can you point me in the direction of which bit in the FAQ says this because last time it came up for me, it was pretty clear cut and if I can avoid this, I'd like to.

[Razaele]

Sure, no problem.

Spoiler

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Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as it
moved flat out what happens to any embarked models? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

Q: What is meant when the term ʻturnʼ is used? (p9)
A: Whenever the word turn is used it means player turn.
Otherwise it will clearly state game turn. In a complete
game turn both players get a player turn. Hence one game
turn will comprise two player turns.

Basically, this event only happens when you move flat out, end your turn on difficult terrain, and roll a 1. At least, that's how I interpret it.

[Winterwind]

I'm not even sure why a FAQ would be needed for this - the rules themselves seem pretty clear to me:

1. Models in a transport are destroyed if the vehicle is destroyed and they cannot disembark.

2. Models cannot disembark from a vehicle that went flat out this turn.

3. Vehicles are destroyed if they are immobilized after they moved flat out on this or the previous turn.

So, if your transport goes flat out and is either destroyed or immobilized in the same turn (i.e., your turn), which can pretty much only happen if you ram/shock something or fail a dangerous terrain test, the models cannot disembark because of 2., and are destroyed. In the opponent's turn, if they manage to destroy the vehicle or immobilize it (and thus destroy it because of 3.), the models are allowed to disembark (and thus don't get destroyed), because 2. only forbids them to disembark if the vehicle went flat out in the same turn as when they disembark, not - as in this case - in the previous turn.

[Nameless Ghost]

Consider dropping Combat Squad B from your first Scout squad to give the Razorbacks Lascannons and TL Plasmas.

I suggested regular Razorbacks rather than tweaking the list to include Las-Plas because he was primarily looking for anti-infantry, having considered an Autocannon/Heavy bolter Predator and not had any Heavy slots left.

Las-Plas are very nice, but I don't think the list needs them when it already has 9 Combi-meltas, Vortex of Doom, 2 4x Missile batteries and Scouts too. Admittedly, I dislike Scouts, but they're there and in such numbers that they do have a passable chance of hurting vehicles. Sure, there's little AP2 (aside from all those combi-weapons), but there's quite a bit of Rending to somewhat make up for it.


The rulebook FAQ frequently answers questions that don't need answering, but fails to answer questions such as 'What happens when a unit is Tank Shocked, displaced but can't move out of the way without moving through enemy models/impassable terrain and/or breaking unit coherency?'

[Timberwolf]

Sure, no problem.

Spoiler

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Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as it
moved flat out what happens to any embarked models? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

Q: What is meant when the term ʻturnʼ is used? (p9)
A: Whenever the word turn is used it means player turn.
Otherwise it will clearly state game turn. In a complete
game turn both players get a player turn. Hence one game
turn will comprise two player turns.

Basically, this event only happens when you move flat out, end your turn on difficult terrain, and roll a 1. At least, that's how I interpret it.

Unfortunately, there's also this in the FAQ. This cost me badly in the last tournament I played.

Spoiler

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Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as it
moved flat out what happens to any embarked models? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

[Hawkfrost000]

@Timberwolf

Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as it
moved flat out what happens to any embarked models? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

Q: What is meant when the term ʻturnʼ is used? (p9)
A: Whenever the word turn is used it means player turn.
Otherwise it will clearly state game turn. In a complete
game turn both players get a player turn. Hence one game
turn will comprise two player turns.

so unless you took a scary amount of dangerous terrain checks while moving flat out, your units are fine.

DM

[Winterwind]

Unfortunately, there's also this in the FAQ. This cost me badly in the last tournament I played.

Spoiler

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Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as it
moved flat out what happens to any embarked models? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

Yes. "In the same turn".
But why would you do anything that could lead to your transport being destroyed in your own turn? The only way to accomplish that would be ending your movement in difficult terrain, shocking something that goes for Death or Glory, or ramming another vehicle - all of which you are perfectly free to decide not to do. If you willingly take the risk, you have only yourself to blame. And when the opponent's turn comes around, so he could shoot your transport or actually actively do something about it, without you doing something to wreck your own transport - it's not the same turn anymore.

[Cheesegear]

Here's the plan;

1. Raider + Shock Prow + Enhanced Aethersails. Buy it attached to Warriors because they wont need it.

2. Deploy your Warriors on your home objective. Deploy Raider on the other side of your DZ. Your Warriors wont need it.

3. In your first turn, Tank Shock opposing tank 25-36" away. Strength 10 auto-hit! Success!

[Hootman]

Unfortunately, there's also this in the FAQ. This cost me badly in the last tournament I played.

Spoiler

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Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as it
moved flat out what happens to any embarked models? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

...Did you mean to say the exact same thing that Razaele said?

EDIT: Ninjas everywhere, commence counter-assault! Yeah, just deleting what I said, because I wasn't contributing anything with everyone else answering faster.

EDIT THE SECOND: ...Cheesegear, you clearly know enough about Dark Eldar for me to ask this question. Laying all thoughts of efficiency aside, would your Aethersail-Super-Shock plan be viable for...like, 10 transports to do? Just dive-bombing the hell out of the enemy, maniacal laughter and explosions everywhere (assuming there are enough vehicles to hit). Because I could totally see myself fielding a Dark Eldar army who did that and never NOT have fun with it.

[Borgh]

cool idea, only one problem: dediacted transports have to be deployed with the troops they come with. And you can't flat-out on a turn you disembark IIRC. so it will be at least turn 2 before you get to do a 75 point strenght 10 hit.

[Winterwind]

cool idea, only one problem: dediacted transports have to be deployed with the troops they come with. And you can't flat-out on a turn you disembark IIRC. so it will be at least turn 2 before you get to do a 75 point strenght 10 hit.

I'm afraid you are mistaken; there is no rule saying that dedicated transports have to be deployed with the troops they come with starting inside them. So, no, there is absolutely nothing in the way of a first turn diving bomb assault.

[Timberwolf]

Yes. "In the same turn".
But why would you do anything that could lead to your transport being destroyed in your own turn? The only way to accomplish that would be ending your movement in difficult terrain, shocking something that goes for Death or Glory, or ramming another vehicle - all of which you are perfectly free to decide not to do. If you willingly take the risk, you have only yourself to blame. And when the opponent's turn comes around, so he could shoot your transport or actually actively do something about it, without you doing something to wreck your own transport - it's not the same turn anymore.

Hah, well, next tournament I'll be set to argue that one a bit more. I got immobilised by lootas in the same game turn that I went flat out, cost me 3 kill points as my librarian and death company were inside...

[Cheesegear]

...Cheesegear, you clearly know enough about Dark Eldar for me to ask this question. Laying all thoughts of efficiency aside, would your Aethersail-Super-Shock plan be viable for...like, 10 transports to do?

Well, just so you know, each Raider would be 70 points each. Not including the fact that they're Dedicated Transports that have to be bought with a squad (minimum whole unit is 115 points). So, it's actually pretty good.

If you can't pull it off; Your enemy doesn't push his deployment zone, lots of Fearless units with a decent ability to Death or Glory, etc. Always remember that Raiders have these glorious things called Dark Lances or Disintegrator Cannons.

Or is it that the Dark Lances and Cannons come with amazing Raiders attached? I can never remember.

Because I could totally see myself fielding a Dark Eldar army who did that and never NOT have fun with it.

"A vehicle with a Shock Prow may Tank Shock."

Even if there are no vehicles, you should still be having fun. I still need to see if it works with one Raider, let alone 10. Remember, when you ram a vehicle, you also take a hit as well. If you're moving even against a Rhino with at least 24" move, you're taking a S10 hit to your Raider. And, as everyone knows, Raiders are made out of paper.

As least you fill your opponent's DZ with impassable terrain.

EDIT: Due to RAW, it seems I can't combine this with Chain-Snares. Because when you Tank Shock you no longer 'pass over' units. Although Torment Launchers would work.

[Hootman]

Well, just so you know, each Raider would be 70 points each. Not including the fact that they're Dedicated Transports that have to be bought with a squad (minimum whole unit is 115 points). So, it's actually pretty good.

I temporarily aquired a Dark Eldar codex, and I've done the math--the minimum cost for MAXIMUM RAIDER SPAM is 1050 for a legal army. 6 units of 5 Kabalites in your Troops, and 3 units of 3 Wracks in your Elites, with an Avatar HQ. This might be a horrible list in itself, but it was just a test. This would suggest that it is perfectly possible to field an army with 9 First-Turn Tank Shocking Raiders, and still have a halfway decent force in the back to mop up the remains at 1500+ points.

Remember, when you ram a vehicle, you also take a hit as well. If you're moving even against a Rhino with at least 24" move, you're taking a S10 hit to your Raider. And, as everyone knows, Raiders are made out of paper.

Yes, the Rhino auto S10's you back, which will obviously auto-pen (unless the boost from the Shock Prow counts against the strike-back?). However, because you'll still have your Dark Lance attached, the Raider will be able to survive on a Damage roll of a 1 or a 2 (+1 for Open-Topped means 3's immobilize, insta-killing flat out movers). Of course, it will immediately get shot to hell on your foe's turn, but that doesn't make it less hilarious to watch.

[Borgh]

I'm afraid you are mistaken; there is no rule saying that dedicated transports have to be deployed with the troops they come with starting inside them. So, no, there is absolutely nothing in the way of a first turn diving bomb assault.

ah yes, the rule is that t can only start it the unit it is bought with, there is nothing about not being allowed to start empty

[BoSheck]

Started up our next 40K league this week. The usual T/O was out so he asked me to act as an organizer this time. I devised a fog of war system for Planetary Empires and we're using modified ruled from that system. As the first day was going to be gearing up everybody, breaking into teams, picking territories and settling back into a routine of playing I scheduled week 1 to be Kill Team on pairs. As we were a person short I ended up having to play ringer, so I'll present a little report.

Said report:

Spoiler

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I also decided to hamstring myself this tournament and am fielding a 50/50 mix of Dark Angels with the usual Space Wolves. Being the T/O with access to the fog map and what-not, I'm merely opting out from being able to pick who I attack. As such, my territory was one of the last to be invaded. An Ultramarines/Salamanders teamup.

Each person was allotted 200 points as per standard kill team rules, resulting in a nice little 400 point mini-game at each table.

My opponents fielded some sternguard, a fair number of sniper scouts with a missile launcher and a landspeeder tornado.

I Brought a Lone Wolf Terminator with a combi-plasma and wolf claw, 2 thunderwolves (one with a stormshield and a wolf claw, the other with nothing.) While the Dark angels brought a Landspeeder typhoon and an assault cannon Dreadnought.

Specialist rules were in play, so they gave their missile launcher scout relentless and... some other stuff that never actually made a big deal¹. There was a great deal of complaining about the uberness of Thunderwolves...
After which point they infiltrated their scouts exactly 18 inches away from the cavalry². *sigh* The missile launcher did deploy to get a good shot at my landspeeder, though.

I gave the equiped wolf Feel no Pain, the lone-wolf Fleet, and the landspeeder Stealth.

I didn't sieze the initiative, and they took their first turn. Every sternguard moved toward the cavalry³, and the snipers and landspeeders all divided their fire up between the two wolves and the terminator⁴. The missile managed to shake the speeder. A couple of stenguard were in range to fire on the lead thunderwolf and opened with....rapid firing Kraken Bolts⁵, while the landspeeder managed to put a wound on the unequipped one.

On my turn I turbo-boosted the 'ol speeder into a corner with some scouts where the missile couldn't see it. The Dreadnought and space wolves advanced. The sternguard had come far enough forward that I could rapid-fire my combi-plasma into them, resulting in a casualty, while the assault cannon on the Dreadnought cut down several snipers. Needless to say, the forwardmost sternguard were charged and mopped up.

Everything without a heavy weapon advances⁶, firing more Kraken Bolts into the woofs, again dividing fire. This time they put a wound on the equipment heavy cavalry unit.⁷ The scouts by the landspeeder move out of cover, shoot at it with pistols, failing to penetrate then charge it, failing to plant any grenades.⁸

My turns were pretty fast at this point. Heavy bolter and Cyclone launchers vaporize the scouts, Assault cannon dread scares the other landspeeder away, more marines get charged.

They start morale checks next turn, Make 2, but don't have anything left by the end of my fourth turn.

Spoiler

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¹ - This mission type lets you basically tailor 3 of your models to your opponent's army. If it isn't making a big difference, or at least remotely memorable, you're doing it wrong.
²Thunderwolves have a freaking MINIMUM 18" charge range. I've played this guy enough he should know this. Sniper rifles have double the range of your closest infiltrate distance, it's not that hard of a conclusion to come to, is it? Pay attention to your enemy's threat range!
³ Yes. Move closer to the close-combat army with your shooty marines, surely that won't end terribly.
⁴For those of you paying attention, torrenting is extremely important, especially when you can prioritize threats. Yes, it'd be cool if your assault cannon shots all hit, all wounded, and I failed all my armor saves--or you could put 1 wound on 1 guy.
⁵I know Gets Hot! is unattractive, but Vengeance Rounds are GOOD--those units had no cover from the sternguard. If you're gonna wuss out at least fire hellfire rounds, which are also GOOD.
⁶ More moving toward the CC army. It worked last turn, after all!
⁷Basically Point 4 again, driven home.
⁸So, shooting the bolt pistols at the speeder wasn't a bad idea but they could have done that from cover. Those scouts could have at least claimed a cover save versus the AP 4 coming for them, but that speeder just had to be assaulted. I can appreciate the desire for a long shot here, at least.

I hate to come off as a jerk, but the guy who was making nearly all of the tactical decisions on this team started playing a month before I did, has played in almost every local tournament, league and campaign and really has no excuse to be making that many gigantic mistakes. I just hope any of you new guys reading this can at least acquire a little tacitcal acumen from the problems I pointed out.

[otakuryoga]

cheesegear, you are one strange fellow

that bein said i would love to see that go up against someone with multi landraiders or some such just to watch his jaw drop as all his super vehicles go *poof*

[Renegade Paladin]

Bringing five Terminators to a game of Kill Team against a non-tailored list (there's only so much all-comers you can do in 200 points) is just unfair.

[Tarinaky]

I'm pretty certain Terminators are against the rules in Kill Team games... or am I thinking of Combat Patrol?

[Cheesegear]

I'm pretty certain Terminators are against the rules in Kill Team games... or am I thinking of Combat Patrol?

Kill Team is anything you want.
Combat Patrol has rules.