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2012-03-08, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
Just because they are unarmed doesn't mean they cant still pelt with lightsabers or short swords. If they don't have TK fighting, then why don't they all invest in the strongest saber they can make and then do other utility? Why should they worry about prioritizing utility over field control?
That aside though, we don't have anything to really replace it. So, if you feel it should be gone on both pure and unarmed, please type up your edits so we may all see what you mean before we assume you're right :P
Also, is the wording clear on the action part of Unarmed and and Mental strength?
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2012-03-08, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
OK, couple of suggested edits, put in bold below:
Pure Telekineticist.
Spoiler
Replaces: Martial Skill, Telekinetic Fighting, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Telekinetic Reach and Critical Thinking.
Benefit:The number of Hands you have is increased to 1 Hand/Class Level. The range of your telekinesis increases to 20ft/level.
Unarmed Telekineticist
Spoiler
Replaces: Martial Skill, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, ability to wield weapons with Telekinetic Fighting.
Benefit: You may generate weapons of pure force to use in place of normal weapons for your Telekinetic Fighting. You may generate as many as you would like at the rate of at least 1 Hand/Weapon as a move action. It also takes a move action to add or remove Hands from the weapons. All invested Hands apply to the damage dice as well as the bonus modifier.
These deal damage equal to 1d6/Hand force damage. They gain a bonus to hit and to damage equal to 1/2*Charisma Modifier*(Invested Hands + 1) maximum Hands invested in a single weapon are equal to your class levels. These are treated as weapons the Telekineticist is proficient with for all purposes. Their critical range begins at 20/x2. This increases to 19-20/x2 at 13th level, and to 19-20/x3 at 16th.
At 4th level these weapons are treated as magical for the purposes of overcoming DR. At 10th level they are also considered to be cold iron and silver for the purposes of overcoming DR. Finally, at 16th level they are considered to be adamantine for the purposes of overcoming DR.
These weapons may taketheany color and whatever weapon shape you chose, but this has no mechanical effect.
Suggested edits reasoning:
Pure TK shouldn't be getting Critical Thinking because it doesn't have TK Fighting!
Unarmed TK shouldn't be able to use TK Fighting with normal weapons, and as such shouldn't be able to use them like that at all (you can still use weapons with force blast of course!). Gave them a critical boost because otherwise they gain no beneift from their main weapon with Critical Thinking, so now they gain a late (levels 11-18) progression to try and keep up with all those pesly party members who have actual corporeal weapons to enchant! Similar reasoning led me to add in their anti-DR progression.
On a related note, why shouldn't we take out this: 1/2*Charisma Modifier*(Invested Hands + 1), and replace it with the faaaaar simpler and yet reasonable: Charisma modifier *(1/2 Invested Hands). It's a simplification (needed) and also a slight nerf which I think they may need if we are to give them the anti-DR and critical progressions (which make them a far more rounded combatant imo)
Also, The Augur is sat outside the Savant spoiler dude, just noticed!
I'm all up for putting a link to your current summation of the class + extras, PM bob with the link and ask him to copy/paste to the top of his post, probably better than putting it into the class post itself.Last edited by Veklim; 2012-03-08 at 04:16 PM.
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2012-03-08, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
Unarmed TK doesn't seem that effective with the rewrites.... Compare every other damage dealer at 20th level.
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2012-03-08, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
These guys, at level 20, threaten just about everything and anything within a 200ft radius, and can strike disparate targets anywhere within this range, usually simultaneously... if we scaled up damage to be on par with just a one-handed specialist, we'd OP them to the nine hells and back as a result. These guys are battlefield control experts, they just happen to be able to hurt things a lot whilst doing this!
All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.
My homebrews Moloques! Sagacious Defender of the Forge, The Open Palm, Sacred Scourge, The Bastion
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2012-03-08, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
What classes were you thinking about?
Even unoptimzed (no con, cha of 20 at lvl 20) he has 7 hands. If all of those are invested into one weapon you'd still have:
+40 attack bonus (+20 BAB, +20 (4xchamod))
7d6+20 damage at full iteratives.
Keep in mind, this is absolutely unoptimized, just as written.My first foray into homebrew: The Circuit Mage
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2012-03-08, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
I didn't know you added 4*cha mod to your attack >.>
Still, you'd be doing about 1d6+5 damage with a single hand invested.
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2012-03-08, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.
My homebrews Moloques! Sagacious Defender of the Forge, The Open Palm, Sacred Scourge, The Bastion
Co-Developer of the Mutant Powers Project:
World Warper
Telekineticist and ACFs, Feats, Shadow Hand PrC
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2012-03-08, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
To be fair, there's a lot of odd math you have to do to figure out all the benefits from the class abilities
For epic abilities, at least with the unarmed TK, I suggest having the weapons counted as Epic for the purposes of DR.
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2012-03-08, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
Did the changes and fixes. As to cha*1/2 Hands...at 5 Hands in, it switches bonus from 5d6+30 to 5d6+25. assuming cha +10 Ok, simpler and not too drastic. I'll add it in. I have the link in the post so that when Bob copies it, it will go onto the front page.
Ok. We will. Assuming a power stat of +10. A normal fighter gets +~30 to hit 1-2dx+30ish with PA and two hands against a single target.
We get +40 to hit (assuming only two hands) and 2d6+20 to hit. Now damage wise, we might do a little less. But we can do that to 14 targets (with a con of +5 and the feat) with a full attack each. Our emphasis is control, not nukes. But if you really wanted the strongest weapon he could make 20d6+110 with a to hit of 130. But at that point he can't do much else and is gonna get squished.
See above.
Your Hand calculations are wrong. You forgot the capstone doubling. Should we have it also double those from con?
Single Hand investment would be: 1d6+7 but then you could do that 14 different full attacks (Using stats from Re'ozul).
You get to add cha to hit and damage as per TK Fighting. Then when using these weapons, you get a bonus of .5*cha mod*Hands to hit and damage.
Sparked a thought, are these weapons Weapon Focusable? If so they need a general name...
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2012-03-08, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-03-08, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
Because Wizards are so straight forward...
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2012-03-08, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
With a wizard, you don't have half a dozen class abilities to work with. I think that's part of the problem I have understanding the class.
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2012-03-08, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
With a wizard, you have just a few dozen spells that each reshape the world and each one requires a different understanding of the deep parts of the rules.
This is just a few class abilities that stand alone. All mechanics and equations are within the class. None are really that complicated...but then again, I realize that brewing takes a solid understanding of the rules so my judgement may be biased.
But this is unproductive. Do you have any thoughts so far on the class? Or things you would like to see the class be able to do?
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2012-03-08, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
to be fair, the mechanics are embedded in the class. most classes with complex abilities in standard books spin the explanation into 100 page spell descriptions. takes a bit of a read(note my laze fair mode at the moment...)
Avatar by Szilard, thank you sir for the fine work!
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Telekineticist
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mindbender
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2012-03-09, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
I don't think that's needed at all. Besides, even at epic levels, doubling the effective bonus from any Con pumping kit is perhaps a little excessive, they get 14+Con (+10 with the feat) at 20th already, that's enough I think!
In all fairness, aside from the fact that a 20th level wizard has a minimum of 62 spells known at 20th level (assuming 14 intelligence to start with and not a single scribed spell outside of the ones gained from a new level), they also have to understand the interconnected mechanics of spellcasting itself. The TK has everything it needs right there in front of you, the only choices you need make are which ability to use, and they have less of those than a monk. Even if you take one of the Savant ACFs, you still only have 5 powers to keep track of, and it replaces Far Trick so your number of options is actually almost exactly the same either way.
I can see how this would look slightly intimidating to anyone not entirely comfortable with arithmetic (since it's not really maths, just a bit of multiplication and addition really) because the class is actually pretty substantial, but bob hit the nail on the head here:
What we're trying to present here is a strong Tier 3 blaster/field control expert with enough variety (through feats, ACFs and class adaptability) to stay interesting to play. There's a reason there isn't much of anything in any of the books which does this, because it's surprisingly hard to find the fulcrum between effectiveness and game balance. Either you end up with a class full of abilities and little utility/choice, or you end up with a spellcaster. We didn't want either of these things.
As the class is presented right now, it is capable of making itself VERY effective in combat, but it's most effective as part of a group. The fighters and rogues of the world would love to have someone like this as an ally, because they can make the most of their own abilities, mages may feel a bit hard done by at first, but once they realise they can now focus on dangerous targets instead of feeling they have to use every AoE, status changing and lockdown spell in their repertoire for battlefield control, they'll grow to love the TK too.
Playing a TK for the first time would be a steep learning curve, but no steeper than playing a fullcaster for the first time (significantly less so in my opinion). The 'maths problem' isn't as big as you seem to imagine, once you know the basics of each ability they're actually quite intuitive to increase. I dunno if you've ever played a high level optimised build, but the amount of arithmetic concerned in doing so is generally on a par with the TK, we just gave you more options within each ability, not really any more work.
@DerTollUdo:
Mental Strength reads 500lb/level/hand for dragging, it should be 250lb/level/hand (5x heavy load)
OK, finally, here's the last of the Savant disciplines. I've decided not to do a psychokinesis entry because hey, they already do that stuff better than anyone, adding more by taking away Far Trick seems like MS PHD to me (More of the Same, Piled Higher & Deeper). Just feels pointless!
So, finally (again) here's
The Maker
Spoiler
Add Knowledge (Engineering) to the Telekineticist's list of class skills.
1st level power. Astral Construct
2nd level power. Psionic Repair Damage
3rd level power. Ectoplasmic Cocoon
4th level power. Psionic Fabricate
5th level power. Hail of Crystals
Constructive Hands
At 5th level The Maker learns to turn his Hands into finely crafted tools, to astonishing results. Whenever The Maker makes a Craft check, he may use a number of Hands equal to 1/2 class levels, always 2 at a time (so 2, 4, 6, etc), henceforth called a 'Pair' to simulate a duplicate of himself for the work. This ability has 3 effects:
1. Gain a cumulative +2 bonus to your Craft check results for each Pair you invested in the Crafting check.
2. Multiply your Craft check result by 1+ Pairs you have invested in the check.
This may be used in conjunction with Craft (Sculpture) for the purposes of creating astral constructs and for Craft checks involving Psionic Fabricate, but has no effect on the time it takes to manifest the powers.
3. At 9th level, when you gain the Focused Shield ability, you also gain the ability to shape your shields in a new way. By using 2 equally sized shields, you may create a hemisphere which has a radius equal to the size of the panes making it (i.e. two 10x10 panes would create a 10ft radius hemisphere). You may enlarge the hemisphere with additional Pairs at a rate of +5ft radius/Pair invested. The hemisphere counts as a single shield when adding extra hands for increased damage and bullrush checks.Last edited by Veklim; 2012-03-09 at 04:05 PM.
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My homebrews Moloques! Sagacious Defender of the Forge, The Open Palm, Sacred Scourge, The Bastion
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Telekineticist and ACFs, Feats, Shadow Hand PrC
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2012-03-09, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
Ok, I thought it was 10x heavy lol. My bad.
And I guess they don't need that many extra Hands, but I can see them wanting that many lol.
As for the maker, I don't understand what you mean by the ability with the shields. Reword that and once it is clearer I will add it to the post.
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2012-03-09, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
Fair enough, gonna change it now, decided that's a bit much anyhow, on a second look through. Have another idea, should suffice methinks, still pretty rockin'....
Constructive Hands
At 5th level The Maker learns to turn his Hands into finely crafted tools, to astonishing results. Whenever The Maker makes a Craft check, he may use a number of Hands equal to 1/2 class levels, always 2 at a time (so 2, 4, 6, etc), henceforth called a 'Pair' to simulate a duplicate of himself for the work. This ability has 3 effects:
1. Gain a cumulative +2 bonus to your Craft check results for each Pair you invested in the Crafting check.
2. Multiply your Craft check result by 1+ Pairs you have invested in the check.
This may be used in conjunction with Craft (Sculpture) for the purposes of creating astral constructs and for Craft checks involving Psionic Fabricate, but has no effect on the time it takes to manifest the powers.
3. At 9th level, when you gain the Focused Shield ability, you also gain the ability to shape your shields in a new way. By using 2 equally sized shields, you may create a hemisphere which has a radius equal to the size of the panes making it (i.e. two 10x10 panes would create a 10ft radius hemisphere). You may enlarge the hemisphere with additional Pairs at a rate of +5ft radius/Pair invested. The hemisphere counts as a single shield when adding extra hands for increased damage and bullrush checks.Last edited by Veklim; 2012-03-09 at 01:07 PM.
All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.
My homebrews Moloques! Sagacious Defender of the Forge, The Open Palm, Sacred Scourge, The Bastion
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Telekineticist and ACFs, Feats, Shadow Hand PrC
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2012-03-09, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
I like the maker, the increase is noticable and can actually help to earn money.
The hemisphere option is a lot better than the breakdown version, mostly because the latter could have been insane.
Breakdown version; lvl 20 pure tele: 40 hands
Allows for one pane of 205'x205'. Thats 1681 individual 5'x5' panes. Since 4 of those make the 10'x10' shield that would come to a maximum of 420 individual shields he could create...who needs the maze spell.My first foray into homebrew: The Circuit Mage
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2012-03-09, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
That was the point, I was wary of making such a big deal over some Crafting improvements, but I thought it gave a really strong handhold on an otherwise slippery niche (making Crafts pay enough to be worthwhile!).
I looked through the numbers and figured it gave a good improvement on what you could do, without being too exploitable as a consequence.
Although you can't actually take Pure TK & Savant at the same time (they both replace martial skill and critical thinking, can't have them both!), I still agree with you that the breakdown concept was a little flawed, hehehe. At least they were breakdown to 10'x10', still broken but not so badly!All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.
My homebrews Moloques! Sagacious Defender of the Forge, The Open Palm, Sacred Scourge, The Bastion
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2012-03-09, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
Alright, added Maker to the table.
Now, to help us get a sense of balance I propose a thought experiment.
Build a character at let's say level 5 10 15 and 20. Then figure out how you approach these following combat scenarios.
You and your party are surprised, your wizard is caught between buffs and gets caught up defending himself and cannot help. Your other physical heavies get their targets, and cant really help you. You are left with a handful of enemies to deal with by yourself. Lets say 3 then 6, 9, and 12. All of them are melee heavies.
Ill add more later. Just put up how you would go about it, round by round isnt needed unless you want.
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2012-03-10, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
OK guys, gonna get a couple of my DM friends round tomorrow after work and try some playtesting with these guys. In the meantime, does anyone know of anyone who does playtesting for people? I'm working multiple random extended/split shifts 6 days a week just now, so finding time is often a hassle just now, the help would be VERY much appreciated.
Just as a thought, should we test just the base class first, then make sample level 10s of the ACFs to compare?
Either way, Humans and Strongheart Halflings are gonna have a ball, because they can actually take both of the 1st level only feats, as long as they take a Savant ACF...that could potentially be rather devastating, especially if they're using The Maker (enough hands to make a dome within a dome)!
Also:
I don't see it, and the Unarmed TK hasn't been updated with the Cha + (1/2 hands) thing either, unless I'm looking in the wrong place...?!Last edited by Veklim; 2012-03-10 at 05:36 PM.
All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.
My homebrews Moloques! Sagacious Defender of the Forge, The Open Palm, Sacred Scourge, The Bastion
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Telekineticist and ACFs, Feats, Shadow Hand PrC
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2012-03-10, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
well... if the base class is broken, the AFCs will need to change to fit a fix...
Avatar by Szilard, thank you sir for the fine work!
my home brew. you should PEACH them...
Telekineticist
Razor
Shield
blasterv4
mindbender
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2012-03-10, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
Good point, well taken. Base class first it is sir!
I'm planning on using my pet DMs to run small groups to work as allies and enemies, and we can all monitor the TK whilst I play it. I'll be taking notes, not minutes, but if anything of import happens I shall endeavour to report with some detail. Not sure how much I'll have time to do tomorrow, but I'll certainly have something for you by Monday sometime!All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.
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2012-03-10, 08:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
Maker is on the list. Check post 146 thats where I keep updating. Saves me time of always copy pasting. As for UA the change for bonus isnt changed because I hadnt found a good fix yet. Now I have.
Seperate to hit and damage. Make to hit bonus of +1 per Hand make damage bonus gone but stay at 1d6 per Hand. We had been forgetting that you already add cha to hit and damage from tk fighting. I feel this brings it in line while still making it viable. Thoughts?
Also, Bob, the most updated version is post 146, it even has a link in it that you can put in the first post so people can find it if you get swamped again.
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2012-03-10, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
up blahblahblah
Avatar by Szilard, thank you sir for the fine work!
my home brew. you should PEACH them...
Telekineticist
Razor
Shield
blasterv4
mindbender
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2012-03-11, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
Cool. Thanks Bob.
So thoughts on the UA change? And anyone want to even attempt my thought experiment? Should I change the scenario?
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2012-03-11, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
UA change is okay.
I won't actually build a full character but here is my take on the level 5 character, vanilla telekineticist.
Assuming base 16 cha, 14 con, 14 dex with +2 items in cha and con.
Strongheart Halfling
Combat reflexes (total 4 AoO)
spiked chain expertise
Total number of hands: 5
What you have:
- Mental Strenght
- Force Blast
- Far Trick (Bullrush only)
- Telekinetic Fighting
Enemies: 3
Nominal hp of enemies: probably around 50hp at most
Viable options:
1) use 2 hands to keep up 2 spiked chains in two squares adjacent to and diagonal through yours. This gives you a total trip capability. However, it'll only allow one trip attempt before the enemy is upon you if the enemy is smart. 4 chains work better, but cut deeply into your hand budget.
Whatever hands you have over, you can use to blast the enemy either with rocks (if you only have 1 hand left) or the touch version (if you have more).
The touch blast does 5d4 now, so a hit with 3 of them (at +3 attack bonus) could deeply cut into one enemy. The rock version is even better if you have easy access to heavy things.
2) depending on the enemy's mass you can just float them away with mental strenght. Your DC is now 16 so CR5 grunts should be reasonably susceptible. Your strongest weapon is force blast again though.
Honestly I can see the spiked chain version far better. Its also one of the things that makes telekinetic fighting a lot more useful.My first foray into homebrew: The Circuit Mage
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2012-03-11, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
Thank you. Thats really what I was looking for, not full chars. Just the ideas of what would or could be done since I feel that is better for balancing.
So it seems that at level 5, 3 enemies isn't really that big of a threat. I wonder where the line is between handling well, overpowering, and losing to will lie...
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2012-03-11, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
Well, at first I was wondering how the lvl 5 character (no good far tricks, no shields) would hold out. Spiked chain coverage is kind of a dirty trick.
Normal chain-tripper is somewhat annoying for a DM. This guy can wield multiple chains.
Later he can probably out-chain a chain-devil.My first foray into homebrew: The Circuit Mage
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2012-03-11, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Gender
Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.
Currently running full test on standard and unarmed builds, will run through a couple of combat encounters at 5th, 10th & 15th over the next few days. Results pending...
Will do other ACFs if this goes well!All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.
My homebrews Moloques! Sagacious Defender of the Forge, The Open Palm, Sacred Scourge, The Bastion
Co-Developer of the Mutant Powers Project:
World Warper
Telekineticist and ACFs, Feats, Shadow Hand PrC