Apologies for the double post, but I wanted to keep my replies from the previous thread out of the leader post for this one.
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Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey
All true.
But I still don't think he is doing the right thing, and I fail to see what "evil" the Empire has done.
That's fine since Ulfric has a very polarising ideology. I haven't done the Stormcloak side yet to get the other side of the story, so I'll reserve judgement on what he's doing is right.
On the surface of it from an Imperial perspective, he's got some justification for the cultural invasion aspect, especially from the various conversations between Legate Rikke and General Tulius.
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Originally Posted by VanBuren
Yeah, I'm never gonna be able to get behind racism, even fantasy racism.
On a personal level, I agree with you.
On a more pragmatic level, as long as their personal views don't interfer with their duties or affect their policies, does it really matter?
Ulfric is unquestionably prejudiced, but thus far it seems to be limited to neglect of the Grey Elves living in Windhelm, something that his steward appears to be trying to rectify on the quiet.
Compared to what he could be doing to purge Skyrim of all foreigners, it's probably the best that they could hope for (still doesn't make it right though).
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Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey
I agree with this too; Basically all of the Imperial-backed ones are better at their job and / or better people than the Stormcloak-backed ones.
Generally I agree, but I loathe Maven Black-Briar.
I was really disappointed when I found out you couldn't disband the thieves guild and hence a significant portion of Maven's powerbase.
Last edited by Brother Oni : 05-14-2012 at 06:45 AM.
My friend played both sides simultaneously, until he stopped going Stormcloaks because
Spoiler
Ulfric tells you to attack that city you're the Thane of - Whiterun, I think? The people there have been nothing but nice to you, the leader was gracious enough to make you Thane, give you a house and one of the better companions in the game, and he's telling you to attack it.
Ulfric is kind of a jerk.
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What upsets me the most about Ulfric's designs for Whiterun is that it affects the only political base that seems to understand the greater problem at hand and is providing resources to address that. Had I the choice, I would have slaughtered both Tulius and Ulfric and made Balgruuf high king, even if he didn't want the honor.
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RE: Civil War. I haven't done this yet, I'm currently deciding whether to pursue this or the Thieves' Guild next. It seems to me that the story team decided early on to make both sides despicable, but to "tweak" the players by starting it out with the traditional "rebellion good empire bad" schtick. This way they could pull the rug out, so to speak.
Spoiler
Frankly, Ulfric is acting like a spoiled brat. He couldn't be acting in the Thalmor's interest any more if he wanted to. On the other hand, I don't see how most people could listen to the General's conversation with his second-in-command in Solitude and not want to smack him - or kneecap him, for that matter.
Having said that, I think the Civil War in Skyrim might need to get 'self-moderated' some way here, as it clearly has a way of taking over the thread. Perhaps something as simple as, "If you're angry enough to start bullet-point responding, keep it in spoilers" or something like that.
RE: Raising Sneak. I'd like to confirm that the method of sneak-attacking an unkillable character works, within certain limits. I did it to the Silver Blood guy as part of the Forsworn Conspiracy chain in Markath. There can't be anyone else that sees you do it, however, and it isn't as fast as some people suggest it is because you have to wait for them to reset before you can sneak attack them again. It was good for over 30 skillups before I just couldn't grind it anymore without my eyes bleeding
In other news, dual-wielding two Daedric Daggers that are max-improved is just nothing short of crazy, even unenchanted and without all the perks. I played around with not surrendering during the Forsworn Conspiracy chain and just ran through town killing guards when they tried to kill me. It wasn't a fight, it felt like playing Pac-Man without the threat of the ghosts frankly.
Also, I have to say one of the Markarth quests triggered a squick ("Ewwwwww....") factor for me. I already knew from previous experience with this game series that most of the Daedric artifact quests wouldn't be for me but... I got into this one without realizing it was a Daedric quest. I figured it was just another kill-the-undead-in-the-tomb thing. Thankfully the NPC was killable when I went to the second stage, so I got that out of my system
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Last edited by TheEmerged : 05-14-2012 at 08:19 AM.
I disagree, he's not kind of a jerk, he is a jerk.
It still doesn't detract from his stated aims though.
Edit: sorry, I felt I should clarify. When you're involved in statecraft with the stakes as high as depicted (the control of the entire province of Skyrim, the defence of your culture from Imperial culturalism, not to mention the lives of all your soldiers), you generally don't have the leeway to be nice.
You have to make the hard decisions and if it involves sending your best soldier to attack their home city where they hold a position of power and respect, then you do it.
As a side effect, you're testing their loyalty, both to you and your cause, so while I agree it's a bit of a [redacted] move, it's a necessary one.
Out of curiousity, has much been made of Ulfric's military background in that he's got a very black and white view of the political situation?
Terry576's comments on his orders to attack the city as part of the Stormcloak questline, sounds like it since he's pretty much telling you to pick a side once and for all.
If the game were more complex (or a PnP RPG), then you could use your influence as Thane on the Jarl to surrender the city so that people wouldn't have to suffer, making sure you get a couple nice compromises/clauses into the settlement especially with retaining full control over the city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEmerged
Also, I have to say one of the Markarth quests triggered a squick ("Ewwwwww....") factor for me. I already knew from previous experience with this game series that most of the Daedric artifact quests wouldn't be for me but... I got into this one without realizing it was a Daedric quest. I figured it was just another kill-the-undead-in-the-tomb thing. Thankfully the NPC was killable when I went to the second stage, so I got that out of my system
I was playing an Argonian so that quest was perfectly fitting (I was wondering why I wasn't doing it in the first place - what else are you going to do with your 50% disease resistance and fast healing rate ).
There's only two bits that depress me in the game:
Spoiler
The lighthouse section with finding out what happened to the family, hoping you'd find one of them alive, then getting to the end where the daughter has committed suicide so she wouldn't be fed alive to those insects and the remains of the father inside one of them.
That pretty much cemented my dislike of Falmer and I will take the time out to hunt down and kill everyone of those little [redacted] every time I go into a Dwarvern ruin.
The other was when you're getting back inside the Dark Brotherhood sanctuary during the raid and you noticed they've killed Babette's pet spider.
Last edited by Brother Oni : 05-14-2012 at 09:00 AM.
The moment Balgruuf (rather angrily) announced he wouldn't put politics before the well-being of his people, I knew what side I was on. Whiterun's. Seriously. Ulfric will never win on my computer just because of that one outburst.
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Ah, yes. "Art", an abstract term capable of turning products corrupted by laziness and arrogance into masterpieces that are not merely immutable, but inherently justified.
The moment Balgruuf (rather angrily) announced he wouldn't put politics before the well-being of his people, I knew what side I was on. Whiterun's. Seriously. Ulfric will never win on my computer just because of that one outburst.
That outburst almost made me feel bad about abusing my Thane position to kill a man in public (I got sick of hearing that priest talk every time I wanted to go to Dragonsreach, so I stabbed him in the face in front of Sithis and everybody else too).
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Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
Anyone got content-adding mods to recommend? I kind of feel like starting a new dude, but beyond the Thieves Guild I've done pretty much everything already, and I'm not a huge fan of sneakery.
Or, additionally, what's your favourite quest? Maybe I've missed that one.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaronK
Frankly, a Wizard can suck even more than a Fighter could ever dream of sucking. A Fighter can stab himself to death, but only a Wizard could Plane Shift to some horrible far realm to be tortured for an eternity of insanity.
Or, additionally, what's your favourite quest? Maybe I've missed that one.
Daedric quests are usually more interesting than the rest - do them if you already haven't. A Night To Remember, Mind of Madness, and Waking Nightmare, for example.
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Anyone got content-adding mods to recommend? I kind of feel like starting a new dude, but beyond the Thieves Guild I've done pretty much everything already, and I'm not a huge fan of sneakery.
Or, additionally, what's your favourite quest? Maybe I've missed that one.
I'm a fan of the exploding chickens mod. Not sure how useful it is, but MAN. IS IT FUNNY.
Especially with console commands. You can kill dragons with those bad boys.
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Quotes:
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by TravelLog
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBurke
*snip* ...Hands down the funniest class critique I have ever read... *snip*
I cannot tell you the number of times I laughed while reading this.
Frankly, Ulfric is acting like a spoiled brat. He couldn't be acting in the Thalmor's interest any more if he wanted to.
It's the Empire that's playing into the Thalmor's hands, not Ulfric. When you choose siding with your enemy over your subjects, you've lost your kingdom, and that's what the Emperor has done with the WGC.
Quote:
RE: Raising Sneak. I'd like to confirm that the method of sneak-attacking an unkillable character works, within certain limits. I did it to the Silver Blood guy as part of the Forsworn Conspiracy chain in Markath. There can't be anyone else that sees you do it, however, and it isn't as fast as some people suggest it is because you have to wait for them to reset before you can sneak attack them again. It was good for over 30 skillups before I just couldn't grind it anymore without my eyes bleeding
Honestly, why bother? You'll get plenty of sneak just by sneaking around doing missions. My advice is don't grind any non-crafting skill, there's no point. Buy training in your armour of choice, and let the other skills increase naturally. You'll have a lot more fun.
Quote:
In other news, dual-wielding two Daedric Daggers that are max-improved is just nothing short of crazy, even unenchanted and without all the perks. I played around with not surrendering during the Forsworn Conspiracy chain and just ran through town killing guards when they tried to kill me. It wasn't a fight, it felt like playing Pac-Man without the threat of the ghosts frankly.
Really, any weapon type can be made absurdly super-powered with the benefit of smithing. The daggers aren't special, in fact I prefer Sword/Dagger to them because the dual-wield power attack animates so much faster, plus the reach on the sword makes stand up fights more fun, at least for me.
It's the Empire that's playing into the Thalmor's hands, not Ulfric. When you choose siding with your enemy over your subjects, you've lost your kingdom, and that's what the Emperor has done with the WGC.
Yes, but at least they are competent compared to the gross levels of ineptitude the Stormcloaks exhibit in positions of power.
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It's the Empire that's playing into the Thalmor's hands, not Ulfric. When you choose siding with your enemy over your subjects, you've lost your kingdom, and that's what the Emperor has done with the WGC.
So how does helping the empire play into the Thalmor's hands? Its not like the Thalmor can attack Skyrim if the dragonborn is there. They last about two seconds against a storm call. And the rest of the empire, able to get troops from Skyrim, is all the stronger for it.
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Doing another playthrough, this time as a melee rogue build instead of an archer one. Don't get me wrong, being an archer is fun - sneak attacking people from hundreds of feet away, watching them tumble over things and freak out, completely unable to find me even three feet away? Fun.
But sneaking silently through a bandit fort, snuffing torches as I go, and sneaking up behind a man as he grumbles to himself at his desk? Getting right behind an unsuspecting enemy and shivving him in the spine? There's something so much more satisfying about that.
Both of my stealth playthroughs have been the most fun I've had in the game so far.
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Honestly, why bother? You'll get plenty of sneak just by sneaking around doing missions. My advice is don't grind any non-crafting skill, there's no point. Buy training in your armour of choice, and let the other skills increase naturally. You'll have a lot more fun.
The part you may have missed from the previous thread is that I'm done with the main quest, level 76 now, and essentially trying to max out every skill and finish up some areas & questlines I didn't do yet
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Sometimes, the knights are the monsters
The main problem with the world? So many grownups, not enough adults.
Pain is nature's way of saying you're not dead and the other guy is.
Current Project: Sky High, the superheroic High School campaign. The school's name isn't the only thing I borrowed...
Last edited by TheEmerged : 05-14-2012 at 08:35 PM.
There's quite a few places where it lets you remove the torches from the wall, or place torches there. If it gives me the option, I take it for the lighting advantage.
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The moment Balgruuf (rather angrily) announced he wouldn't put politics before the well-being of his people, I knew what side I was on. Whiterun's. Seriously. Ulfric will never win on my computer just because of that one outburst.
That's a perfectly respectable and admirable positions to take, but purely playing devil's advocate here, is it such a wise choice for Whiterun to attempt to go it alone?
Its strategic importance (the only way to get around Skyrim without going through Whiterun Hold, is to detour north through Hjaalmarch (Morthal), The Pale (Dawnstar) and Winterhold, all three of which are coastal thus prone to raids by Imperial forces which control the seas) coupled with its known security problems suggest it's not strong enough to hold out against the Imperial army AND the Stormcloaks.
It may be able to hold off an assault by one side, but then what's stopping the other from marching in and mopping up afterwards? Wouldn't that cause even more suffering on Whiterun's citizens than just surrendering/allying from the start?
The only reason why it hasn't been taken, is because of this very fact - the Stormcloaks and the Imperials are waiting for the other to make the first move on Whiterun.
Baalgruuf is playing for time by refusing to station Imperial troops, but equally he's not opening his gates to the Stormcloaks. Eventually however, he's going to have to make a choice.
That's a perfectly respectable and admirable positions to take, but purely playing devil's advocate here, is it such a wise choice for Whiterun to attempt to go it alone?
Its strategic importance (the only way to get around Skyrim without going through Whiterun Hold, is to detour north through Hjaalmarch (Morthal), The Pale (Dawnstar) and Winterhold, all three of which are coastal thus prone to raids by Imperial forces which control the seas) coupled with its known security problems suggest it's not strong enough to hold out against the Imperial army AND the Stormcloaks.
It may be able to hold off an assault by one side, but then what's stopping the other from marching in and mopping up afterwards? Wouldn't that cause even more suffering on Whiterun's citizens than just surrendering/allying from the start?
The only reason why it hasn't been taken, is because of this very fact - the Stormcloaks and the Imperials are waiting for the other to make the first move on Whiterun.
Baalgruuf is playing for time by refusing to station Imperial troops, but equally he's not opening his gates to the Stormcloaks. Eventually however, he's going to have to make a choice.
That's not what I meant - I meant that I won't act against Balgruuf. Ulfric's "with us or against us" mentality leads directly to his defeat with every character I play.
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Ah, yes. "Art", an abstract term capable of turning products corrupted by laziness and arrogance into masterpieces that are not merely immutable, but inherently justified.
That's a perfectly respectable and admirable positions to take, but purely playing devil's advocate here, is it such a wise choice for Whiterun to attempt to go it alone?
...
Ehh. The Imperials aren't going to attack Whiterun for not allying with them, only for allying with the Stormcloaks. Neutral parties are left well enough alone, unlike Ulfric's "Join or Die" plan.
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Last edited by Kinslayer : 05-15-2012 at 09:54 AM.
Ehh. The Imperials aren't going to attack Whiterun for not allying with them, only for allying with the Stormcloaks. Neutral parties are left well enough alone, unlike Ulfric's "Join or Die" plan.
Really? Because I distinctly remember my neutral character getting the death sentence from General Tullius himself for nothing more than crossing the border into Skyrim. That's what really cheeses me off about the Imperials. I've never played any of the Civil War questline, I'm just not a huge fan of the death sentence for immigration.
Really? Because I distinctly remember my neutral character getting the death sentence from General Tullius himself for nothing more than crossing the border into Skyrim. That's what really cheeses me off about the Imperials. I've never played any of the Civil War questline, I'm just not a huge fan of the death sentence for immigration.
You were caught in the middle of an ambush. You are at best in Skyrim illegally and at worst an agent of the Stormcloaks. Tulius didn't make the call on your execution, he allowed the Captain in charge manage things, but he doesn't hold it against you when/if he sees you next. The captain is an uncomplicated woman who would rather apologize for executing a minor criminal than for allowing a Stormcloak agent go free under the guise of an innocent bystander. To a certain sort of mind, that would be a logical conclusion. From a personal perspective, it's less forgivable.
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Ah, yes. "Art", an abstract term capable of turning products corrupted by laziness and arrogance into masterpieces that are not merely immutable, but inherently justified.
Ehh. The Imperials aren't going to attack Whiterun for not allying with them, only for allying with the Stormcloaks. Neutral parties are left well enough alone, unlike Ulfric's "Join or Die" plan.
In addition to Gaelbert's comments, it would depend on how much General Tullius trusts Baalgruuf. Is Tullius comfortable enough to launch an attack on Eastmarch, knowing that his flank/rear is held by a neutral Whiterun at the very defensible Valtheim Towers?
Given Tullius' opinion and understanding of Skyrim and Nordic culture in general, he probably trusts them as far as he can throw them.
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Originally Posted by Calemyr
You are at best in Skyrim illegally and at worst an agent of the Stormcloaks.
Not speaking as devil's advocate here, while I agree with the worst case, I'm going to dispute the best.
I wasn't aware that the Empire had immigration policies and passport/visa requirements, so at best, you're an innocent bystander who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Given the world's generally low regard for life, they're not going to shed any tears if an innocent person is executed, as you've said.
Last edited by Brother Oni : 05-15-2012 at 01:15 PM.
Given Tullius' opinion and understanding of Skyrim and Nordic culture in general, he probably trusts them as far as he can throw them.
I'd say that Tullius trusts the Nords fairly well, it's just that he doesn't really want to be in Skyrim trying to figure out thier ancient traditions, at all. He just wants to kill Ulfric, smash the Stormcloaks (killing Ulfric does this anyway), and go home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calemyr
You were caught in the middle of an ambush. You are at best in Skyrim illegally and at worst an agent of the Stormcloaks. Tulius didn't make the call on your execution, he allowed the Captain in charge manage things, but he doesn't hold it against you when/if he sees you next. The captain is an uncomplicated woman who would rather apologize for executing a minor criminal than for allowing a Stormcloak agent go free under the guise of an innocent bystander. To a certain sort of mind, that would be a logical conclusion. From a personal perspective, it's less forgivable.
Pretty much this. Tullius didn't really care about you one way or the other, and you've been caught hopping the boarder, or at least within ambushing range of the Stormcloaks.
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I wasn't aware that the Empire had immigration policies and passport/visa requirements, so at best, you're an innocent bystander who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Given the world's generally low regard for life, they're not going to shed any tears if an innocent person is executed, as you've said.
Controlling the battlefield is a key to fighting a war. Closing the borders would be an early step to keeping the civil war under control.
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Ah, yes. "Art", an abstract term capable of turning products corrupted by laziness and arrogance into masterpieces that are not merely immutable, but inherently justified.
Given the world's generally low regard for life, they're not going to shed any tears if an innocent person is executed, as you've said.
If they kept the laws back from the days of the Septim Empire you are guilty until you prove your innocence - so technically we are not innocent in their eyes ;)
Controlling the battlefield is a key to fighting a war. Closing the borders would be an early step to keeping the civil war under control.
One thing you forgot- who in the right mind would you go in to viking land in civil war, other than refugees and criminals, nord who wanted to fight for stormcloaks, Or in breton case
Spoiler
a nobleman escaping from his/her own deadly court.
So they have justification for arresting you in the first place.
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One thing you forgot- who in the right mind would you go in to viking land in civil war, other than refugees and criminals, nord who wanted to fight for stormcloaks, Or in breton case
Spoiler
a nobleman escaping from his/her own deadly court.
So they have justification for arresting you in the first place.
Or traders, Khajit caravans, people looking to start a new life in a new land, people wanting to learn about magic, people wanting to visit Skyrim, people wanting to leave the destruction of their own land behind them, etc. etc.
Edit: Wait. Are you implying that refugees ought to be put to death?
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