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2012-08-23, 02:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-23, 02:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Mike Havran; 2012-08-23 at 02:58 AM.
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2012-08-23, 03:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
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2012-08-23, 04:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
I am intensely curious what Zzditri's personal reasons for being obsessed with destroying V are (assuming the Giant bothered to come up with any justification for it and didn't just accept the evil twin thing as written in the stars). It's assumed that drow in general hate elves in general, and they have exactly opposite spell choices, but it's unlikely V is the only elven evoker in the world, or even the only elven evoker who wears red and talks a lot, so I would like to hear some reason for Z's obsession with him.
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2012-08-23, 04:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
If Zz'dtri believes, as Vaarsuvius used to, that arcane power is the only kind of power that matters, then a build designed to beat wizards makes sense. It's the flipside to Vaarsuivius' assumption that it's the wizard's job to fix everything; the idea that overcoming all the wizards is how you "win".
Being tailored to beat V might just be a side effect of being tailored to beat wizards in general.
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2012-08-23, 05:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
'Why' is a mystery (and one not likely to be solved, since I think Zz'dtri is probably not going to survive this fight, let alone this book), but the fact that he's doing it in the first place shouldn't be in question.
As theNater points out, it's not as if tailoring his build to fight V is worthless against other wizards. And saying that V isn't particularly powerful seems questionable, seeing as she's at least fifteenth level - that's not a common thing in a lot of settings, and doesn't seem to be here.
Edit: On second thought, isn't getting him dragged off by lawyers a decent reason to hold a grudge? I'm not sure if anything more complicated then that is needed, especially since drow have been traditionally characterized as putting a high value on revenge.Last edited by ti'esar; 2012-08-23 at 05:15 AM.
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2012-08-23, 06:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
I believe that Z's quote there is likely a part of his attempt to psychologically undermine V, as was suggested by Qarr here. Z was actually fairly successful in getting under V's skin and who knows how would the duel go if Z was more wordy.
If Z really started to modify his build just out of grudge towards V, it happened after his first defeat, when they were both around level 11, which is not as powerful.
Even minor characters in the comics have some depth, so the idea that a moderately important antagonist is a mere spiteful, revenge-obsessed fool doesn't ring right with me.
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2012-08-23, 07:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
I thought the comic started our with them at 8th level or so?
Even minor characters in the comics have some depth, so the idea that a moderately important antagonist is a mere spiteful, revenge-obsessed fool doesn't ring right with me.
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2012-08-23, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-08-23, 08:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
Yes, per the FAQ, the Order was around level 8 when they entered the Dungeon of Dorukan, and thus around level 9 when they first faced the Guild. Z, however, was level 11 or higher when we first met him; he was able to petrify Celia with a level 6 spell.
Except that is the whole motto of the Linear Guild, disproportionate revenge. And we don't know how horrible WoTC Lawyer imprisonment was for Z.
EDIT: darn ninjas. And wielding links!Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2012-08-23 at 08:03 AM.
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2012-08-23, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
Being focused on defeating a single opponent is not completely out of line for a member of a group that is practically synonymous with taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights.
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2012-08-23, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-23, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-08-23, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2012-08-23, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
But what was the quasi-imagined slight in the first place, that's what I want to know. Not the lawyers, mind, but before the lawyers. If Z's entire build is anti-V, he'd have to have started before they ever met, since you only have a certain amount of "feats, stuff" to go around, to say nothing of choices of spells learned at every level up and so forth. So, back when he first showed up with two scimitars and a flimsy claim of being Chaotic Good, why was he planning V's destruction THEN? Why did he sign on with Nale when they first met and Nale said "Hey, you want to kill this talkative gender-ambiguous elf I know of?" Surely he had other uses for his time if there hadn't been at least a slightly compelling reason to fixate on this particular target.
I'm waiting to hear that it ties back into one of our long-lingering plot threads, probably involving Familicide and the IFCC. Perhaps that chalice Qarr was looking for was a prophetic device, and it confirmed that V would break Z's favorite coffee cup three years from current game time, and Z upon learning of this heinous affront began calculating his vengeance, not realizing that the events he had set in motion himself would eventually and inevitably be the cause of his beloved china's disastrous end. And meanwhile Director Cedric sits back and smiles approvingly.
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2012-08-23, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
There is no indication that Z knew of V or had any sleight against V at this point, he appears to have met V in the dungeon of Durokan and altered his build specifically to defeat V since.
In the Dungeon, we do not see anything which indicates that Z was particularly effective against V.
He prepared a spell against the most common spell Wizards cast - ever (certainly allowable without any specific preparation, shield is a pretty common spell for wizards to take.)
His spell resistance absorbed one of three spells, totally normal without any feats or enhancing items, leading me to believe he didn't have any at this time.
And he was a Drow... which certainly was NOT a choice he made specifically to defeat V :P
So... yeah... no evidence that Z knew or cared who V was prior to V getting him arrested and bodily removed from a combat within which he was the clear victor.Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2012-08-23, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
The LG's team wizard is, just like the rest of the LG, a NPC whose very reason to exist is the PCs.
Of course it's ridiculous if you look at it from a "Z's personal motives for doing it" POV... but that's not the point. The comic is PC-centered. Trying to find the reasons/motivation behind Z's behavior is fruitless, you might as well try to figure out what would the motivation be for 1d4 dire camels to find themselves in a swamp.Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2012-08-23, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
I agree with lio45. Zz'dtri's initial motivation for hating Vaarsuvius was, "I exist to be his/her evil twin." It was (and is, whether or not it is still the only motivation in existence) the only motivation required.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-08-23, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
Actually, I would argue that this is exactly wrong. The primary plot and theme of the comic absolutely revolves around the feelings and motivations of villains. Not all of them, of course; the motives of Leeky Windstaff and random ogres and so forth are silly and sketchy, and Z's might be too. But we don't know yet!
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2012-08-23, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
Hmmm, well, the main villain is basically the most cliché BBEG you can imagine, and his "motivation" (ruling the world) is pretty much "I exist so the PCs and I can have a big Hollywood-style final tussle". He even said once that he gotta save the A-material for the PCs (when he Ghostforms through the Azurite watch tower). So he's there as the story's stereotypical BBEG. Period.
The OotSverse is first and foremost a campaign world for our six PCs. Sure, Rich's an awesome story-teller, and some characters are extremely well developed, but it remains that, in many cases, a character being there for no other reason than the fact the campaign/story calls for them to be there -- mimicking the typical roleplaying story -- is something perfectly normal in the OotS world.Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2012-08-23, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
Come to think of it, if Zz'dtri truly did despise V entirely out of disproportionate retribution and the evil twin thing, he would be the only Linear Guild member we know of who does so (except possibly Yikyik).
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2012-08-23, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
1. Xykon's motivation is not so much to rule the world as it is to avoid the bad stuff that awaits him in the afterlife. Not being bored is a secondary although significant motivation, and the rest pretty much follows.
2. Z's build being optimized against V doesn't mean he's helpless, but it does mean that his build is not optimized for close-quarters combat or for getting shot at by Haley. Sure, he can doubtless toss a few useful spells but which ones? Area-effect spells are going to hit his allies as well; Phantasmal Killer is pretty weak; flying or buffing Tarquin would be pointless ... and if Z succeeds in dispelling the smoke, Haley may decide to spend some of her multishot in making the wizard fumble his spells. I'm not saying that Z can't have something useful, but he's never been the blaster that V has been. This would be a good time for Z to show us whether Dimension Door would evacuate the whole party quickly to a muster point.Last edited by rewinn; 2012-08-23 at 07:30 PM.
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2012-08-23, 10:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-08-23, 10:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
I personally think Xykon's character really crystallized after becoming a lich. So it may not be fair to discuss his motivations based on what he was like previously.
Avoiding death doesn't really seem to be a primary motivation, though; not sure where that idea is coming from.
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2012-08-23, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-23, 11:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2012-08-24, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-24, 03:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-24, 04:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
These, along with the "disproportionate revenge" argument are very good and I think they were definitely true say, 500-600 strips ago. But I believe the story advanced way too far from that point and important characters became more developed, with more sophisticated motives. The sole character that didn't change much is Xykon because, there is really little room for his developement right now.
The Linear Guild is also a few steps further from "clichéd recurring villains" they were prior their escape from Azure City. In this arc, they were pretty much following their own plan and ignored the Order until they by chance appeared in the EoB and Nale panicked. And now the new Linear Guild ... Nale has his own issues with Tarquin and Malack and, between Nale and the IFCC, Sabine has also a lot to think about. Tarquin and Malack are complex characters on their own. That's why I think there's more to Z than him being just a spell-resistant obstacle that has to be overcome by V all the time.
On a side note, Z could easily prevent problems from Haley's part with Stoneskin (I don't think that is such a rare spell). I understand why he didn't prepare it prior his duel with V but he would be a moron if he didn't learn his lesson.
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2012-08-24, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
It is less likely to grab a black sock. It is unlikely we'll agree completely on this.
On the current discussion, Z. had a "Defeat-V" build because the L.G.'s plan in the palace was specifically to separate and duel, and Z would have the kobold's help as well for any surprises. It would probably have worked if V hadn't had character growth and had continued to attack instead of thinking about the battle.
That was days ago (in-strip) and Z is almost certainly better balanced for a group-on-group battle now. As the main caster Z probably has some decisions specifically to offset V, but should have more generic choices to handle contingencies.