LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

[Irish Musician]

Originally Posted by Heliomance

Spoilered for potential TMI:

Spoiler

Tucking plus morning wood is NOT a comfortable combination

ow

This, quite literally, made me spit out my coffee this morning. Not because of the discomfort of your.....morning. But because when I read it, it just hit me funny.(heh)

EDIT: However, yes, morning....erm.....stiffness is fairly uncomfortable, even for those of us not trying to rearrange down there.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by Jeff the Green

In general, the studies look at twins separated at birth (something that has mercifully mostly stopped now), so none of them were breast fed.

Early childhood experiences can strongly affect sexuality in general. There is, for example, the famous Westermarck effect, which causes children to assume any other child they grew up with to be a sibling, and so not sexually attractive. This came to be a problem in the Kibbutzim of Israel, where children were raised communally, and so none were attracted enough to each other to marry! On the other hand, we tend to desire people who look similar but not identical to the primary caregiving adults in our young years, which is why many straight men/gay women end up with women who look vaguely like their mothers and gay men/straight women often end up with men that look like their fathers.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the what's-his-name effect, though I never remember the name, and the issues in the kibbutzim. But that has a very clear evolutionary benefit, whereas attraction to people similar to one's parents seems to me to be a potentially bad thing; if they share many traits, they might share many genes, so mating with them could be a bad thing. So I really don't understand how the attraction to people similar to one's parents thing worked out evolutionarily, I would have expected it to work out like the what's-his-name thing if I had been theorising this stuff while studying primates a few hundred thousand years back. Slight tangent now, looks likes.

[The Succubus]

Originally Posted by Celtic_D&Der

This, quite literally, made me spit out my coffee this morning. Not because of the discomfort of your.....morning. But because when I read it, it just hit me funny.(heh)

EDIT: However, yes, morning....erm.....stiffness is fairly uncomfortable, even for those of us not trying to rearrange down there.

Tickled a funny bone, so to speak?

It is mildly irritating though - I would like to think my head's in charge of that part of me, rather than it being a semi-sentient being with a will of its own. oO

[Asta Kask]

I usually just take matters into my own hands.

[Jeff the Green]

Originally Posted by noparlpf

So I really don't understand how the attraction to people similar to one's parents thing worked out evolutionarily, I would have expected it to work out like the what's-his-name thing if I had been theorising this stuff while studying primates a few hundred thousand years back. Slight tangent now, looks likes.

Tangent:

Spoiler

Because some inbreeding is good. While sibling relationships have a greatly increased risk of genetic disease, cousin relationships don't have a significantly increased risk (for most populations) and have fewer fertility issues. The closer a woman is related to her partner, the less likely her body will attack the sperm on its way to the ovum.

[Irish Musician]

Originally Posted by The Succubus

Tickled a funny bone, so to speak?

It is mildly irritating though - I would like to think my head's in charge of that part of me, rather than it being a semi-sentient being with a will of its own. oO

Well, I KNOW my parts somewhat have a brain of their own. As the saying goes,

Spoiler

"God gave men two heads, and only blood enough to run one at a time."

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

I usually just take matters into my own hands.

I see what you did there

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by Jeff the Green

On the other hand, we tend to desire people who look similar but not identical to the primary caregiving adults in our young years, which is why many straight men/gay women end up with women who look vaguely like their mothers and gay men/straight women often end up with men that look like their fathers.

*compares mental images of father with that of boyfriend and maternal grandfather*

*scratches head*
I guess nobody in both our families cares much about respecting psychology anyway. Or maybe that's because my mom's bi and I'm demisexual. But my father didn't look like my maternal grandmother either. Oh, what the hell, I'll get myself homemade cookies instead.
P.S.: yes, that's a funny, I know what "many" means.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by Jeff the Green

Tangent:

Spoiler

Because some inbreeding is good. While sibling relationships have a greatly increased risk of genetic disease, cousin relationships don't have a significantly increased risk (for most populations) and have fewer fertility issues. The closer a woman is related to her partner, the less likely her body will attack the sperm on its way to the ovum.

Ah, that makes sense. Okay.

[Irish Musician]

Originally Posted by Jeff the Green

Tangent:

Spoiler

Because some inbreeding is good. While sibling relationships have a greatly increased risk of genetic disease, cousin relationships don't have a significantly increased risk (for most populations) and have fewer fertility issues. The closer a woman is related to her partner, the less likely her body will attack the sperm on its way to the ovum.

The only thing my wife has in common with the rest of my family, and myself, is that we are gingers.......for the most part. My mom isn't, but I am, my wife is, and my grandma is......but they look nothing alike, so I am with you on that one Musashi.

[Absol197]

Originally Posted by Celtic_D&Der

I see what you did there

It seems you missed the other thing in what you quoted however.
The first part of what Succubus said...

[Arachu]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

If you feel comfortable with it, I definitely think you should contact Ramachandran (official homepage) and discuss this with him. While anecdotal data* like this is not very useful for confirming hypotheses, it is extremely valuable for forming them.

*anecdotal because it's not collected is systemathized, not because we think you're lying. Important distinction.

Maybe... I'll think about it.

Originally Posted by Absol197

Yeah, I have, too. Of course, mine was almost certainly through sheer willpower and psychosomatic-suggestion.

I've done that too, but only that one time and it was mostly tricking something or another into 'inverting the registry' of my current genital configuration (it was even more confusing and tricky than it sounds ).

The one I mean now just feels... Like something *should* be there. Like there's this whole area desensitized or something. I've actually felt nonexistent (or, well, misplaced) muscles flexing... Last time I remember feeling this odd was early puberty. :s

I would actually like to try belly dancing myself. But not as a guy. Oh, and I saw some pole-dancing on TV briefly last night. It was on Two and a Half Men when they were in a stip-club, unfortunately, but the actual routine was incredible O_O . I can definitely see how the practice should be removed from that stereotype, 'cause that could seriously be in the Olympics; if trampoline can be included, something as athletic as pole-dancing should definitely be!

*Thought for a bit there you suggested trampolines being involved in some routines and was all like @.@*

Very big news today. I saw my therapist yesterday, and we've (read: I've) decided it's time to come out to my parents. She going to help me next time. Two weeks to P-Day. Nervousness! >_<

*Hugs~*

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Blind means the patient doesn't know if he's given active treatment or placebo. Double-blind means that the experimenter doesn't know either. You label all the pillbox (momentary brainfart, I know that's not the real word) and a computer does the randomization. Triple blind means the statisticians don't know either. Quadruble blind studies haven't been performed yet, but just wait...

Oh, and all my support to Helio and Absol.

I guess quadruple-blind involves a true random number generator (so even the computer doesn't know)... And quintuple-blind would be random pill samples being distributed into random bottles (so the bottles don't know)? Sextuple would be carried out with random computers (so probability doesn't know)...

Originally Posted by KenderWizard

Going mad, people. The most annoying part is, I can't go to my therapist unless I register at college, and I can't register unless I get funding, so I can't see my therapist during this stressful period waiting for funding.

*Hugs!*

Originally Posted by noparlpf

That's good. I'm a pretty bad therapist anyway.
I'm just starting up seeing a therapist here as of Monday. I think I'll be working on anxiety because my depression is pretty under control right now and anxiety just makes it worse, so I want to work on that first.

*Hugs*

Originally Posted by Heliomance

Spoilered for potential TMI:

Spoiler

Tucking plus morning wood is NOT a comfortable combination

ow

*Hugs!*

Spoiler

I'm actually kind of worried about tucking... There should be more room by the time I actually do, considering I'll have lost more weight by then, but... Er, sitting up straight might be... Very uncomfortable. Especially in public. >.>

~Bianca

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

They don't. They have to let you know you are part of a trial, and that it may involve getting a placebo, but they aren't having you sign a document about
PLACEBOS, and that you might be taking PLACEBOS and should have conversations about PLACEBOS with your doctor. PLACEBOS. They don't make a big deal of it, because teu don't have to. There's no reason for patients to be suspicious, especially if they volunteered for the trial (which is the standard, as I understand it). The kind of people who would worry about whether they are getting a placebo or not is not the type who would be willing to go through a test anyway. Isn't that job like, discussing side effects an stuff too? The list of side effects from medicines nowadays is worse than the ailment usually.

I figured they didn't. I was expressing doubts about the idea proposed by noparlpf who appeared to me to want to do something slightly less extreme but no less emphatic.

My point was that I don't think it's a good idea to place undue emphasis on the placebo when you're prepping people for the experiment.

Originally Posted by Heliomance

Yeah. I usually do when I'm in girl mode.

Well... Now you know not to? It seems painful enough to not want to repeat at any rate.

Originally Posted by noparlpf

Yeah, I'm familiar with the what's-his-name effect, though I never remember the name, and the issues in the kibbutzim.

Westermarck or Westermark, I think.

[Irish Musician]

Originally Posted by Absol197

It seems you missed the other thing in what you quoted however.
The first part of what Succubus said...

Heh, no. I didn't miss it.....But I didn't want to point out all the fun little bits there......

[The Succubus]

Originally Posted by Celtic_D&Der

Heh, no. I didn't miss it.....But I didn't want to point out all the fun little bits there......

I feel it's quite capable of making a point on its own. ^^

[Irish Musician]

Originally Posted by The Succubus

I feel it's quite capable of making a point on its own. ^^

Oh it definitely makes it own point. ಠ__ಠ

[The Succubus]

Amusing as all this is, I think we had best take a change of direction away from infantile humour, lest we take it too far. =)

[Absol197]

Originally Posted by Arachu

I've done that too, but only that one time and it was mostly tricking something or another into 'inverting the registry' of my current genital configuration (it was even more confusing and tricky than it sounds ).

Mine was because I had an idea in my head when I was a little younger, that if I wanted to be a girl as badly as I did, then there had to be a girl out there who wanted to be a guy just as bad, right? And if that's the case, why couldn't we, for lack of a better word, trade our sensations, so we could have the shadow of being who we wanted to be?

what followed over the course of several years (and a bit into the present still >_< ) was appealing to various higher powers to be the facilitator of this trade. Several times I was almost certain it had succeeded. Hence, the psychosomatics .

Originally Posted by Arachu

*Thought for a bit there you suggested trampolines being involved in some routines and was all like @.@*

No, I was referencing Olympic Trampoline, and suggesting Olympic Pole-Dancing .

Originally Posted by Arachu

*Hugs~*

*hugs back*

Originally Posted by The Succubus

I feel it's quite capable of making a point on its own. ^^

You're a bad, bad man ...

EDIT: You are right, though, we should probably bring this to a head.

...Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm done now. Really.

[Irish Musician]

Originally Posted by The Succubus

Amusing as all this is, I think we had best take a change of direction away from infantile humour, lest we take it too far. =)

But......but........that's the only humor I know!!!

But you are right, I think this line of jokes has reached its climax...

HAD TO......... HAD TO!!!!!

[Heliomance]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

I usually just take matters into my own hands.

Taking that solution is... not fun, emotionally, when suffering the throes of dysphoria.

Originally Posted by Coidzor

Well... Now you know not to? It seems painful enough to not want to repeat at any rate.

Worth it. Worth every second to be able to look down and not see a horrible bulge.

[Lentrax]

Originally Posted by Heliomance

Worth it. Worth every second to be able to look down and not see a horrible bulge.

I'm sorry Helio, one day you won't have to worry about that problem. Until then all I can say is you are an attractive young lady, and we all love you for who you are, not what.

*hugs Helio*

[The Succubus]

Originally Posted by Heliomance

Taking that solution is... not fun, emotionally, when suffering the throes of dysphoria.

Worth it. Worth every second to be able to look down and not see a horrible bulge.

Still feeling dysphoric hun? =( *squeezy cuddle*. I really hope you'll be able to make it to the next UK meet. You looked stunning the last time I saw you. =)

[Heliomance]

Originally Posted by Lentrax

I'm sorry Helio, one day you won't have to worry about that problem. Until then all I can say is you are an attractive young lady, and we all love you for who you are, not what.

*hugs Helio*

Yep, in about a month to six weeks' time I'm guessing. For about a month to six weeks.

I don't think transition is a solution that can help me, what with the way my gender identity swings every month or so. It's something I'm stuck with, unless we hit the singularity in my lifetime and we get the ability to modify our bodies at will.

That would be a dream come true.

[golentan]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Hm. I've thought about that before. I always figured that it would either freak people out really bad at the species level, or not bother them at all. I can get into the xenophobic mindset, of a culture so alien even the base assumptions o their biology, personality, social understanding, everything is so different you couldn't know what traps lie in wait... But then I figured, I don't really feel human most of the time anyway, and if she eats my head afterwards, it was a good run up until then. I'll reincarnate eventually, and be no worse for the wear than maybe a little gun-shy and afraid of mantids.

How different is the physiology? On a gross level as well - or would that be superficial level? I mean, Asari are superficially pretty close to humans, up to and including mammary and uterine structure, but totally different physiology. Also, how important is the different mechanics?

... Bah. Now I need to go find some trashy alien romance stories.

How different is the physiology? Pretty different. Different number of limbs, body shape, arrangement of organs. A biologist forced to classify her by earth standards wouldn't put her in with mammals by any stretch of the imagination, though they'd probably through a conniption fit if you suggested that she be lumped in with the insects (her closest appearance analogue) due to things like the internal skeleton, endothermia, and general internal chemical and physiological similarities with birds. Psychologically she's quite different as well, having sometimes unpredictable fear or anger responses and having a much stronger need for interpersonal contact. Her sense of humor is somewhat surrealist, and she just can't get her head around the ideas of money, acting, and certain facets of the education system among others.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by Coidzor

I figured they didn't. I was expressing doubts about the idea proposed by noparlpf who appeared to me to want to do something slightly less extreme but no less emphatic.

My point was that I don't think it's a good idea to place undue emphasis on the placebo when you're prepping people for the experiment.

Well obviously the participants have to be informed, consenting adults, so they know they might receive placebo. But also obviously you're not trying to convince them all that they have the placebo or things get skewed.

Westermarck or Westermark, I think.

Jeff even said that in his post, I was just emphasising that I never manage to remember the name.

Originally Posted by Heliomance

Worth it. Worth every second to be able to look down and not see a horrible bulge.

Really? I know for me, if I wanted to ignore my genitals, I would do anything but put pressure on them, because then I'd be constantly aware of them.
Though I seem to acclimate to constant sensory inputs less than normal people.

On the topic of uncomfortable crotch experiences, today it rained while I was in class and the seat of my bike got wet.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Heliomance

Worth it. Worth every second to be able to look down and not see a horrible bulge.

I can't even imagine what you'd have to be wearing to sleep in that would do that.

[Heliomance]

Originally Posted by Coidzor

I can't even imagine what you'd have to be wearing to sleep in that would do that.

I wear knickers to bed under my nightdress. It's pretty standard practise by an awful lot of women, I believe.

[golentan]

Hmm... My gal recently discovered some trick involving women's briefs which she said works better with tucking and comfort than things she had tried before.

[Absol197]

Originally Posted by Heliomance

Yep, in about a month to six weeks' time I'm guessing. For about a month to six weeks.

I don't think transition is a solution that can help me, what with the way my gender identity swings every month or so. It's something I'm stuck with, unless we hit the singularity in my lifetime and we get the ability to modify our bodies at will.

That would be a dream come true.

That would be amazing...I'm really sorry you're having such trouble. I'm not sure I would be equipped to deal with what you go through, myself. You're a trooper! And from what I've seen of you in the media thread, you're verry pretty! (And, about a month to six weeks from now, you'll be quite handsome, too!)

Originally Posted by Heliomance

Taking that solution is... not fun, emotionally, when suffering the throes of dysphoria.

Very much agreed . I've been lucky recently, though. Taking steps to become more...well, me, has lessened my dysphoria. Plus, mine doesn't seem to be quite as...sharp? as yours. It's more of a dull, deep, depressing ache that doesn't go away, instead of the sharp, "This is wrong!" that I think (quite possibly incorrectly; I'm just judging by what little I've read) you go through, to make a physical-pain analogy.

Originally Posted by Heliomance

Worth it. Worth every second to be able to look down and not see a horrible bulge.

I do disagree a little, here. My thinking is more in line with what noparlpf said - if I can ignore it, it's easier to imagine it's not there, and it's easier for me to ignore when it's not uncomfortable.

Of course, I don't look down all that much (part of ignoring it), so that might be part of where our differences in opinion come from.

Still, I really hope you feel better soon, honey! *Hugs!* I know it sucks!
I think I've got a very over-active empathy muscle/brain area/thingy: every little thing I read, see or hear about happening to people changes my mood almost as if it's happening to me, and as I've been slowly unlocking my emotions more, it's been getting stronger. It's at the point where I'm getting very confused (and sometimes physically dizzy) about how I actually feel, because it's mixed in with all this other stuff. Maybe this is part of why I started hiding from my emotions in the first place?

[Heliomance]

Originally Posted by Absol197

Very much agreed . I've been lucky recently, though. Taking steps to become more...well, me, has lessened my dysphoria. Plus, mine doesn't seem to be quite as...sharp? as yours. It's more of a dull, deep, depressing ache that doesn't go away, instead of the sharp, "This is wrong!" that I think (quite possibly incorrectly; I'm just judging by what little I've read) you go through, to make a physical-pain analogy.

Mine varies. At the moment, I'm all girled up and I've been shopping, I feel pretty good. Sure, I've still got the wrong equipment between my legs, but I can ignore it, everything's fine. Sometimes I have the dull ache as you describe, and about three times so far (usually, I find, at the start of female periods) it's got so bad and immediate that I don't want to do anything except curl up in a ball and cry.

As regards dysphoria and tucking, I find my dysphoria is very strongly keyed to appearance. If I can look at myself and see a girl - and almost more importantly, if I'm sure that other people looking at me are seeing a girl - I have far less dysphoria, no matter what I can feel from my body.

I got an immense happy thrill today when I was shopping, I asked to go and try on a bra, and none of the store assistants or other customers in the area gave me a second glance.

[Absol197]

Originally Posted by Heliomance

As regards dysphoria and tucking, I find my dysphoria is very strongly keyed to appearance. If I can look at myself and see a girl - and almost more importantly, if I'm sure that other people looking at me are seeing a girl - I have far less dysphoria, no matter what I can feel from my body.

Ah, there we go, the missing ingredient! I haven't started trying to pass yet, and I'm currently resigned to the fact that I look (extremely) male, so I don't freak out about others seeing me as male, because I know they will. Okay, maybe I do a little, but it's more of, "I know they see me as male, and I don't like it," than, "Are they seeing me as male? Female? I don't know!". Maybe once I get a bit further along, things will change.

Originally Posted by Heliomance

I got an immense happy thrill today when I was shopping, I asked to go and try on a bra, and none of the store assistants or other customers in the area gave me a second glance.

Yay! Happy Helio is happy!