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2012-10-25, 01:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
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2012-10-25, 06:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Well, in a way, that's all I wanted to say. Tau are pretty unified, but each world has a specialty, something they're known for.
Like this:
Vior'la, a major military centre of the empire, its Fire warriors are considered especially aggressive and skilled.Si non confectus, non reficiat.
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2012-10-25, 07:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Ah, then I misunderstood. My apologies. Planet is a bit vague in this case. You're right that non-Tau worlds politically controlled by the Tau Empire are homogenized to a degree (Kroot worlds are treated differently than Vespid worlds are treated differently than Gue'vessa worlds).
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2012-10-25, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Actually, they will stop at one thing-their own troop's lives. Tau are in infamous in 40K for "gasp" always prefering to give up territorry in order to save their force's lifes rather than making last stands. Contrast with the usual "no retreat" policy of the IoM.
You make it sound like the Imperial would have any chance of career choice in their previous existence besides loyalist or rebel. But they didn't have any really. Imperials basically get their job decided for them during their youth (whetever drafted into a military or economic machine) and they'll basically spend their lives at it unless they choose to rebel.
And like Farsight showed, you can also be a Tau rebel allright.Last edited by deuterio12; 2012-10-25 at 08:05 AM.
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2012-10-25, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-25, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Social mobility varies wildly between planets. Remember, the majority of the worlds of the Imperium are actually classified as Civilized worlds (That is, self-sufficient agriculturally, but not focused on agricultural production like an agri-world), not hive worlds or forge worlds.
Last edited by Squark; 2012-10-25 at 09:25 AM.
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2012-10-25, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I think I'm in my element here, but the Kroot aren't really true members of the Tau Empire, they are all mercenaries, and they fight for more than the Tau Empire in the fluff. They just don't tell the Tau this.
Yes, but all of his Ethereal's died before he rebelled, this could imply (Oh god! My education is making me use stock phrases from assessments!) that his rebellion could have something to do with them dying. I doubt he would have rebelled if they didn't die.My extended signature.
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2012-10-25, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-25, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
1: The Tau are perfectly content with expending their troops lives when necessary to advance the Greater Good. Thousands of Fire Warriors might fall in the invasion of a planet, and that is just fine. Don't mistake tactics for strategy; the Tau abandon defensive positions when holding them would cost their lives with no hope of success, or when doing so allows them to force the enemy to overextend so they can start hit-and-run attacks and cut the enemy's supply line. It's all part of the 'well-managed' bit. They avoid tactics which would cause unnecessary casualties, but are very willing to accept 'necessary' casualties. Unlike the IoM, they recognize that you can't conquer the galaxy if all your soldiers died defending a worthless bombed-out bit of trench.
2: Squark already brought this up, but as long as you weren't born on an Agri-world or a Forge World, you've got a decently large say in what sort of job you'll have.
1: No, the Kroot are one of the first members of the Tau Empire. They think of themselves as part of the Tau Empire, and for the most part remain loyal to it. They send out Mercenary Kindreds specifically for an opportunity to meet new, strong beings and eat them to advance the Kroot species. They keep this secret from the Tau because they know the Tau wouldn't be pleased, but the Kroot homeworld is within the Tau Empire and the Kroot are officially one of its client species. Yeah, the Kroot aren't mercenaries for the Tau to the point that they go to huge lengths to keep the fact that they do any mercenary work at all secret from them. Note that this was one change from the 'old' Tau codex to the 'new' one. In the 3rd edition book, the Kroot were just mercenaries allied with the Tau.
2: We don't know much about the circumstances of Farsight's rebellion other than that the Etherials on the mission died about the time he rebelled, and it probably has something to do with that fancy sword of his, or at least where he got it from. Farsight and his pals are one of the official mysteries of 40k, left intentionally vague so players can fill in the blanks themselves. It might be that he couldn't have rebelled without them being dead. It also might be that he killed them himself. Either can be read from what little we've been given on Farsight's rebellion. Heck, one theory I've read states that he's still working for the Etherials, acting as a beacon for malcontent Fire Warriors to form a wall between the Empire and something nasty on the other side of his Enclaves.Last edited by DaedalusMkV; 2012-10-25 at 02:56 PM.
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2012-10-25, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
hmm... How is your average Agri-world run? Are we talking a lot of modern, sophisticated mass farming techniques, or masses of tenant farmers. The latter is more grimdark, but the former is a lot more rational, considering tenant farming is also largely subsistance based.
If Agri-worlds are relatively advanced, you probably get some degree of social mobility, simply because you need people to maintain the gear, people to do the census and manage distribution, and the like. It's forge worlds (Legions of oppressed factory workers) and hive worlds (which seem to primarily exist as places for guardsman breeding populations to exist) that are the really bad places to live.Last edited by Squark; 2012-10-25 at 03:49 PM.
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2012-10-25, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Yes, but the difference is that a wilderness, paradise or agricultural world is going to have a population that tops out a few billion citizens, max, simply based on density limitations, and probably much less (we're right on the cusp of that transition ourselves.) Hive worlds can house trillions of battery-farmed citizens, and based on simple math probably account for the great bulk of the imperium's warm bodies. (Forge worlds seem to have smaller populations, but still top out at many billions, and it's unclear whether that total includes the overwhelming majority of lobotomised servitors.) A randomly-selected imperial citizen will never see their planet's sun, and if they ever stray more than a few miles from their birthplace, it'll probably be as a guardsman conscript.
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2012-10-25, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Yes, there are a lot of people on a hive world, but Civilized worlds are more common by a large margin, and those can still boast sizable populations, but they're agriculturally self sufficient, and, in general, are not horrible places to live. Also, where is the actual documentation that Hive worlds contain trillions? Most I've heard are still in the billions, and Lexicanum is frustratingly ambiguous as to the populations of the more iconic hive worlds that come to mind (Valhalla and Armageddon)
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2012-10-25, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Well... yes. But this is part of what makes them superior to the imperium to begin with. The Tau's advantages in technological research, cultural assimilation, interplanetary commerce and military acumen are probably dependent on allowing a relatively high degree of personal initiative, restraints on government interference, and freedom of thought. They don't do this out of altruism, they do this because it's the most effective method of gaining a long-term advantage over their more numerous, intractable or biologically durable competitors. (Hobsbawm's terms- the age of revolution enables the age of capital which in turn enables the age of empire.)
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2012-10-25, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Except they do have a rigid caste system. I wouldn't doubt that within your caste, it's a 'be all you can be, find how you can best serve the Greater Good', but changing castes would be unthinkable.
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2012-10-25, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
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2012-10-25, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Well... firstly there's just the fact that you could squeeze several billion human beings into an area the size of the Isle of Man, so if Hive worlds are anywhere near as crowded and multi-tiered as they're supposed to be, it's not hard to do the math. I can only go by the lexicanum here, but here's the following excerpt:
There are probably more people on Necromunda than have ever lived in the entire history of Terra up until the end of the twentieth century. An attempted census of Trazior Hive four thousand years ago revealed an estimated population of a billion in the upper habitation levels alone - no further attempt has been made to count Necromunda's population in Trazior or any other of the several thousand hives on the planet.
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2012-10-25, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
hmm... How is your average Agri-world run? Are we talking a lot of modern, sophisticated mass farming techniques, or masses of tenant farmers. The latter is more grimdark, but the former is a lot more rational, considering tenant farming is also largely subsistance based.Si non confectus, non reficiat.
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2012-10-25, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I think the usual answer, like everything else to do with the Imperium, is that it varies. Probably they're mostly using modern-equivalent technology, like motorized harvesters and mass-fertilization and pesticide application, because that's the only way you're going to see a decent food surplus. Agri-worlds are supposed to be able to feed multiple other worlds, after all. But, well, that doesn't necessarily encourage freedom. 90% of everyone born on an Agri-world is destined to be a farmer. Most likely the Tech-workers and Administrators are all virtually hereditary positions, since they require education that wouldn't be available to a dirt-poor farmer. The only choice your average Agri-worlder is going to have is whether to join the Guard or not.
On the other hand, Hive Worlds, while hopelessly polluted, overcrowded hellholes, are the freest places in the Imperium. There is simply such a huge variety of work to be done that you're going to have some degree of choice. Moreover, there are too many people for the Imperium to maintain the harsh control they do on Imperial Worlds. A Hiver might join a gang, run a shop, work in a foundry, maintain a small hydroponic barley farm to creat alcohol or apprentice to a Tech-priest as a labourer. The only planets where the citizens would have greater freedom are Feral Worlds.
Scintilla has a population of 25 billion. It is a sector capitol, and can probably be considered a fairly average Hive World. The old BRB put the population of an 'average' Hive World at 40 billion. The truth is probably somewhere between those two figures.
Yeah, okay, I see. We just had different ideas of the point we were making. I basically said exactly that a little while ago. Agreed. Not that any of that necessarily makes the Tau 'better' than the Imperium. In the real world all of that is just good business practice, but in the 40k universe independent thought is pretty much an open invitation to Chaos. The Tau have been lucky so far because they're all but immune to Chaos temptation, the Kroot can smell Chaos and want nothing to do with it because of their very careful approach to evolution and the Vespid don't really understand the meaning of individualism in the first place, but as they integrate more humans and other Chaos-vulnerable species, it's going to become a problem.
The Castes are biologically disctinct. The Air Caste can't even live on a planet's surface for very long at this point. There's no changing Caste for a Tau, period. Not just unthinkable, but literally impossible.Last edited by DaedalusMkV; 2012-10-25 at 04:47 PM.
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2012-10-25, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Oh, definitely, these are serious problems. I suspect, however, that if they don't develop some direct technological solution to long-range FTL jumps, they'll either utilise their growing knowledge of eugenics/gene-tailoring to deliberately create psyker tau, and/or find some way to neurologically condition human navigators/astropaths in a way similar to the imperial soul-binding process (which would kill two birds with one stone. They might also outsource FTL-jump duties, with suitable upgrades, to their nicassar acquaintances.) Of course, this all assumes that they survive the next few thousand years without being seriously molested.
Oh, no question. (Though that's a little like asking Michael Jordan if he wants to take up angel investing, or if Richard Branson has the urge to join the NBA.)
On a tangential note, I was reading Xenology recently (which is a very good yarn, actually,) and it had some fascinating *cough* 'conjectures' on the Tau's origins, purpose, and methods of social control.
Spoiler
Basically, yes, it's pheremone-based mind control of the other castes, apparently genetically transplanted from the Q'Orl hive queens by the Eldar several thousand years ago, in a deliberate bid to create a socially-cohesive, passive-benevolent and naturally chaos-immune species sited as far from the imperial core as possible.
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2012-10-25, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
That's an interesting perspective. It's certainly true that the lower levels would be more politically anarchic than most, and the economy would, of neccesity, have more technical diversity. The poverty-imposed barrier to education could still be a major roadblock, though.
Scintilla has a population of 25 billion. It is a sector capitol, and can probably be considered a fairly average Hive World. The old BRB put the population of an 'average' Hive World at 40 billion. The truth is probably somewhere between those two figures.
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2012-10-25, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
It's not the whole planet. In fact, very little of the planet's surface. Hive worlds are built precisely because the planet's lack the space to spread out more, because they're mostly either deserts or toxic wastelands.
Si non confectus, non reficiat.
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2012-10-25, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Yeah, don't make the mistake of thinking Hive Worlds are City-worlds like Coruscant or Ravnica. Hives are extremely densely populated and huge precisely because they can't sprawl.
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2012-10-25, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Guys, I'm sorry, but the math here doesn't add up.
You can technically cram 4 people or so into 1 square metre of space. The Isle of Man has 570 square kilometres, or space for a little over 2 billion people. Let's scale that down by a factor of 10 to allow people breathing-room, and modestly assume that you give them 10 2-metre floors of dorms, for an average of 50 cubic metres of living space each. So 500 km^2 == 200 million people.
The earth's surface area is 510 MILLION square kilometres, or space for 200 trillion persons. If even 1% of a similarly-sized planet were built up to these levels, that's 2 trillion human beings.
More to the point, once you start, there's no reason to stop. Hives are self-enclosed and self-sufficient. They recycle their waste, water and atmospheres, grow their own food, and derive power from nuclear fusion. Assuming you can (A) amass the heavy elements needed for the infrastructure and (B) organic compounds needed for the inhabitants (both of which ought to be abundant in the case of, say, Valhalla, a former paradise world) then you can plonk Hive Blocs in the middle of irradiated desert wastes or underneath grinding ice-sheets and they'll function just as efficiently. The external environment is irrelevant, because you don't depend on it. If you go to the trouble of building these things at all, then sprawl has no downsides.
And there's no economic reason to build these enormous tower-blocs unless every other square inch of the planet's surface is already taken. Hive Worlds win the population contest hands-down, or there's no reason for them to exist.
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2012-10-25, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Last edited by bluntpencil; 2012-10-25 at 06:15 PM.
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2012-10-25, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Alright, now where do the dozens of apartment building sized generators, the meters-wide-and-tall streets, the tens of thousands of cubicles, the extra 3' of space for plumbing, with an additional foot for wiring space, the extra foot+ of space every few meters for the massive support beams, the foot of reinforcement for the flooring between rooms/walls, the hundreds of thousands of landing pads, the rooms that require massively more open air, the factories, the massive sewage plants, the resturants, the stores, the hallways. All of these take away from your "perfect model."
Because all of these things honestly take up more space per capita than a persons' required living space. Please hang up your plan and try again later.
They only build giant tower-cities because it's THE IMPERIUM OF MAN!
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2012-10-25, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
The necromunda fluff indicates that food imports are a luxury reserved for the super-rich, given that the imperium can't properly administer the other levels of a hive, let alone distribute rations. Besides, you'd need dozens, if not hundreds, of agri-worlds to feed a single fully-built hive-world, and there don't seem to be that many to spare.
I don't have an inherent problem with the idea of hive worlds, it's just that the population figures given are ridiculously low, and IG human-wave tactics would probably not be viable otherwise.
(Of course, this raises the question of how Space Marine chapters limited to only a few thousand members are supposed to make a gnat's ass of difference in military engagements taking place on that scale, regardless of how badass they are.)
EDIT:
I dunno, maybe on the next 10 floors' worth of space. Bear in mind we're already constructing things a third of a kilometre high, so you can multiply the volume requirements by a factor of 10 or more and still wind up with something well within imperial engineering capacities. I'm making very modest assumptions here.
EDIT EDIT: Fine, fine fine. Psychic modulations of the immaterium cause quantum flux inductions of the techyon resonance modulators, leading to destabilisation of the demographic stochastic analysis flimflam gloop gleep glop. Handwave handwave handwave. FOR THE EMPRAHLast edited by Carry2; 2012-10-25 at 06:43 PM.
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2012-10-25, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
The Imperium also likes to build HUGE, impractical structures. It's their thing
Si non confectus, non reficiat.
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2012-10-25, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-26, 05:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I've long learned to calculate all my IoM figures in the special measurement system that involves "many" "lots" and "really lots".
For example
millions ofmany guardsmen died going over the wire
The population of Armageddon is abouta hundred billionlots
Everyonereally lots of people died a horrible death.
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2012-10-26, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
There's only two numbers we know for sure:
There is never enough Dakka, and there are always more Guardsmen.Si non confectus, non reficiat.
The beautiful girl is courtesy of Serpentine
My S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Call of Pripjat Let's Play! Please give it a read, more than one constant reader would be nice!