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2010-03-15, 09:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Southampton, UK
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Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
So, Iron Heart Surge gets a lot of love and a lot of hate. It's like marmite in its own way, except the Americans are aware of it, it's no good on toast and the Australians don't have their own (better) version, but anyway.
I propose the following fix:
Iron Heart Surge
Iron Heart
Level: Warblade 3
Initiation Action: 1 Immediate Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text
The initiator may re-roll a failed save with a +2 bonus. The initiator must accept the new result, even if it is lower. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
Other fixes:
Sophismata
I feel that that this captures the original intent: Any effect that would cause Conan to yell "CROM" and flex his mighty thews (and whoever made that comment originally, please step foward and recieve your cookie) and thus end what ever was causing him to have to flex his thews and yell "Crom", can be dealt with with this effect. In effect, this is a big red button labeled "no" and can be used as such.
Benefits of this: clearer as to what it does. Fail a save against charm? Initiate this maneuvre. You can, because it's immediate. Turned to stone? Initiate this maneuvre. Step inside an AMF? No, you can't as it does not allow a save. Warmed by the gentle rays of the sun? Sorry, you'll have to tan and burn with the rest of us.
Weaknesses: No good against things that do not allow a save and yet still have a duration, though I can't think of any off the top of my head.
Diliberations, criticisms and so on welcome.Last edited by cheezewizz2000; 2010-03-15 at 09:07 AM.
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2010-03-15, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
Hm a bit underpowered in my opinion.
A fix I made was just saying that the effect only covers the players occupied square. ie you are in an amf and use it the amf is still there but not in your square or the square you move to. Same goes for sunlight or any other effect that you surge away.
Rest works normally of course.Last edited by Emmerask; 2010-03-15 at 09:16 AM.
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2010-03-15, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2006
- Location
- Charlottesville
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Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
I'm confused as to why it needs a fix at all.
Tali avatar by the talented Thormag.
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2010-03-15, 09:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
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- Finland
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
Last edited by Greenish; 2010-03-15 at 09:29 AM.
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-03-15, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
You lost me......
I suggest you spend more time on these boards, if you want to know that. We get a "IHS is borken" thread or tangent about once every other week or so. A sane DM can adjudicate it alright since RAI aren't that bad, but to argue that's enough to make it non-broken is an Oberroni Fallacy.
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Making it a free action that cost you your next standard action would help with some things, and better hold true to the original, in terms of intended balance.Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
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Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
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Belts of potionade
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2010-03-15, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
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- Finland
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-03-15, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
IHS says
When you use this maneuver, select one spell,
effect, or other condition currently
affecting you and with a duration of 1
or more rounds. That effect ends immediately."
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2010-03-15, 09:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
- Location
- Sunnydale
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
Not quite. Grammatically, a "duration of 1 or more rounds" is not the same as a "duration of more than 1 round". The feat's statement requires a stated duration in rounds. Your revision allows anything that doesn't have a short duration. Huge difference. Like, world continuing to exist or not difference.
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2010-03-15, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
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- Finland
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
I've seen it argued that "round" is the shortest time unit that 3.5 acknowledges, so that anything lasting longer than 1/10 of a minute has a duration measurable in rounds.
My pet peeve with IHS is that when that pesky cleric Hold Persons you and comes to paint a mustache on your face as a taunt, you can't overcome the sheer indignity and punch him.Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-03-15, 10:13 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
- Location
- Sunnydale
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
Such an argument is disingenuous, because it's changing the terms substantially. Adding "able" opens up things to all sorts of possibilities not included by design. That's the difference between "did you win" and "was it winnable", where a .001% chance of winning makes the latter true, but the former false.
"You must be at least 4' tall to go on this ride." "But my height is measurable in 4' increments!" Adding "able" removes qualifications, which is why that argument is bunk.
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2010-03-15, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Location
- Finland
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-03-15, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
so ironheart surge does not work against amf? duration is 10mins / level not rounds /level. If that is true it really is bad wording on wotcs part.
I don´t think there there was any word from costumer service regarding this?
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2010-03-15, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Southampton, UK
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Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
Originally Posted by Emmerask
Iron Heart Surge
Iron Heart
Level: Warblade 3
Initiation Action: 1 Immediate Action, See text
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text
Upon failing a save, you may ignore the dice roll and treat it as a success. In doing so, you lose one standard action on your next turn, however you also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls for the next two turns.
_____________
By that wording, you may not make an attack on your next turn, though you may make attacks of opportunity with a +2 morale bonus, and you still have that +2 attack bonus on the turn after that.
EDIT: Changed my wording a little more, to not negate haste. Yeah, I didn't think of that.Last edited by cheezewizz2000; 2010-03-15 at 10:47 AM.
Trust me. I'm a geologist.
My/Friends' Homebrew.
Home on the Range? Bright light city gonna set your soul on fire? Or were you born to be wild? Americana-Punk wants YOU to contribute your homebrew!
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2010-03-15, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
- Location
- Sunnydale
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
Here's an actual D&D example: Metabreath Feats, from Draconomicon, page 66:
To take a metabreath feat, a creature must have a breath weapon whose time between breaths is expressed in rounds. Therefore, a hell hound (which can breathe once every 2d4 rounds) can take metabreath feats, whereas a behir (breath weapon usable 1/minute) cannot.
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2010-03-15, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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- Finland
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-03-15, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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- Sunnydale
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2010-03-15, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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2010-03-15, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
How about "end any effect on yourself, but only on your person". So you could even iron heart surge to grant yourself sunblock, but without nuking the sun.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
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2010-03-15, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
Because I thought that passing a save achieves the same thing as iron heart surge, without the preventing sunburn, gravity, crime, not having a sandwich and not being Asmodeus that Iron Heart Surge as written comes with.
Saph's big list of effects it works on is too clunky, Sophismata's is too long and every other fix allows you to break out of one effect, but not ones that it would be most useful for. This just allows you to say "no" to your DM and then **** his favourite new NPC for being cocky once per encounter, which is what IHS should have been in the first place.Last edited by cheezewizz2000; 2010-03-15 at 01:39 PM.
Trust me. I'm a geologist.
My/Friends' Homebrew.
Home on the Range? Bright light city gonna set your soul on fire? Or were you born to be wild? Americana-Punk wants YOU to contribute your homebrew!
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2010-03-15, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
Conditions whose IHSability reasonable DMs disagree on (judging by discussion in a previous thread):
- domination
- fascination
- ability damage/drain/penalties (but not burn)
- poison (having it in your veins such that you will need a second save in the near future)
- paralysis
- entangled
- checked
- petrified
- ambush feats
- balefull polymorph
- disease
- effects of ambush feats
It has also been pointed out that IHS completely ignores how powerful the inflicter of the condition is. Shouldn't a 20th level wizard be able to bespell a 5th level warblade and make it stick?Last edited by dspeyer; 2010-03-15 at 02:06 PM.
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2010-03-15, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
True, but that's one of the reasons why magic beats the everliving hell out of melee. They can do effects that are auto-win and melee sits there with a stupid look on their face. Magic beats Melee and most Magic requires Magic to break it. I believe it has been said before and might very well be said after this; "Melee should have nice things too."
IHS is a little wonky. I think they wrote it with the impression that the DM is sane and won't allow the "My condition about not being level 20 is hurting me. I wish to end that."
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2010-03-15, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
Which is a good reason to throw off anything a 5th level wizard can inflict. Where it gets sketchy is where 15 levels of increased wizard power still mean nothing against that same warblade.
If you don't like wizards, how about gods? If a deity curses you, you probably shouldn't be able to shrug it off next round.Looking for a monster? Making a monster?
Age of Wariors,, A Homebrew Sequel to Tome of Battle (see also the original thread, disciplines table and prestige class table)
All My Homebrew
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2010-03-15, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
A 20th level wizard has both a swift and standard spell to do this in. A 5th level warblade loses his standard action to negate one of them, assuming, between two spells, he even gets to his turn. A 20th level wizard's spells have huge DCs on them, and the warblade has pathetic saves. Sure, he *might* have a Diamond Mind save-replace, but that'll cost him dearly, since that means he has pre-spent his dangerous actions on saving himself for his turn, and he won't have Iron Heart Surge on his next turn to save him from the returning death.
Or the wizard can just cloudkill him. Most probably the DC is to avoid dying would be so high that a natural 20 would be required.
A L20 wizard's reaction to a 5th level warblade is not "Holy @#$%, my magic isn't working.", but rather "Interesting....I wonder what happens when I throw another spell at him."Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2010-03-15, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- London, England.
Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!
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2010-03-15, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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- Wisconsin
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Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
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2010-03-15, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2006
- Location
- Charlottesville
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Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
My thoughts on IHS and these conditions:
You'd be able to if you had some reason to do so, but the spell by its very nature makes this extremely unlikely. Now, if someone dominated you on top of another domination, and then had you IHS the first one away, that'd work fine.
fascination
ability damage/drain/penalties (but not burn)
poison (having it in your veins such that you will need a second save in the near future)
paralysis
entangled
checked
petrified
ambush feats
balefull polymorph
disease
effects of ambush feats
It has also been pointed out that IHS completely ignores how powerful the inflicter of the condition is. Shouldn't a 20th level wizard be able to bespell a 5th level warblade and make it stick?
So, I guess I can see a few things that would need to be clarified, but nothing that requires anything more than talking to your DM; and, no, I'm not committing an Oberoni Fallacy, I'm saying that the problem isn't big enough to require a rewrite of IHS.Tali avatar by the talented Thormag.
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2010-03-15, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
What about this:
Pick any one ongoing harmful condition, spell, or effect that you received a saving throw to resist or that is subject to spell resistance. Ignore all further harm, impediment, or disadvantages from it.
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2010-03-15, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
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- Hiding and fleeing.
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2010-03-15, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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Re: Iron Heart Surge fix (is it Monday already?)
True, but magic spells that cause wind often allow for saves or spell resistance. Gust of Wind does. Windwall does. Control Winds allows a fortitude save. I guess control weather could inconvenience you still, or natural weather conditions, but that doesn't seem to be that big a problem.