Mass Effect 3.5B: Taste the Rainbow (Story and Ending Discussion; Spoilers!)

[Dienekes]

The existence and emergence of Wrex and Eve as forward-looking Krogan leaders shows that Krogan culture has changed. The Krogan are capable of having leaders not just based on fear and intimidation, but on respecting their ability to make decisions. Listen to the members of Clan Urdnot in ME2. They tell you Wrex is weird, but makes good decisions, and has vision, and THAT is why they follow him.

I'm not sure I can agree with that. Wrex and Eve definitely are forward thinking, no argument there. However, Wrex seemed to definitely rule by intimidation and fear. You step out of line and you don't get access to the woman. You argue with Wrex and he headbutts your face in. Wrex's leadership style was incredibly stereotypical of the normal violent Krogan, the only difference was he actually had a brain.

And even then, many of the Krogan we talk to about it in the second game are angry and annoyed by the fact Wrex is in charge. The scientist for example thinks he's wasting time not making things blow up. Now some of them definitely respect his intelligence, but that is not it. A large part of the krogan mindset is still inherently violent.

And Eve's leadership seems almost entirely determined by the fact that she's genophage free. Thankfully again, she's not violent about it. We know there are some krogan woman who definitely do want revenge for the genophage. Now with Wrex in charge I think they can make a good team to hopefully curb some of the krogan's tendencies (I hope, I'm not certain it will actually work). With Wreav in charge? No. He views Eve as property. He wishes for violence and vengeance. He represents the old views of the krogan and it is not pretty, and does not yet deserve the cure.

[BRC]

I'm not sure there IS another way to rule the Krogan besides fear and intimidation. Remember, every Krogan has the Blood Rage gene (Before they nuked themselves, they would lock up Krogan with that mutation as a danger to society, their right of passage involves getting your friends together and killing monsters. For the last couple thousand years they've been living under the collective assumption that they're a doomed race with nothing left to lose. Maybe one day, after their society stabilizes, you can have Krogan leaders who don't rule through fear, but right now their culture is such that nothing else works.
Remember the Shaman in ME2, Shepard's headbutt doesn't just shut up the other Krogan, it Impresses the Shaman. Ruling through Fear is not just a way to cow your enemies, it also impresses your supporters.

The difference between Wrex and Wreave is that Wrex recognizes that Power is a tool, not an end. He knows that Krogan Rebellion II: Biotic Boogaloo won't turn out any better than the first one, and that the key to the Krogan's future is proving to the rest of the galaxy that they can be something besides thugs.

[Luzahn]

Do we know if Wrex possesses the Blood Rage gene? That could explain the "mutation" Eve mentions; he could represent the old behavior of the Krogan.

[BRC]

Do we know if Wrex possesses the Blood Rage gene? That could explain the "mutation" Eve mentions; he could represent the old behavior of the Krogan.

What's all this talk about Wrex being a mutant. I thought he was just abnormal for a Krogan because he was forward-thinking and more capable of keeping his aggression in check.

[Luzahn]

Hence the quotation marks. Eve mentioned Wrex acting strangely, like some mutant Krogan. I'm thinking its due to not having the Blood Rage gene; I don't know if Wrex was explicitly mentioned as having it.

[Psyren]

He seems pretty levelheaded (for a Krogan) both on Virmire and even if you sabotage the cure. This is particularly apparent when you and C-Sec reduce his HP to the point that it really should have kicked in. So maybe he doesn't.


Anyway, what I'm trying to say is not that the Krogan don't deserve a chance. Given the choice between curing them and not curing them, I would pick curing them - so long as either Wrex or Eve is alive (preferably both.)

But given the choice between curing them completely, and merely weakening the genophage to say, 1 in 50 (up from 1 in 1000) I would personally go that route. Still slow, but a given pair of Krogan can still sire dozens in a lifetime if they focus on doing that (rather than rushing off to war or other conflicts.) Maybe even 1 in 10.

[Landis963]

What's all this talk about Wrex being a mutant. I thought he was just abnormal for a Krogan because he was forward-thinking and more capable of keeping his aggression in check.

To be fair, that kind of thinking is different enough from the krogan norm that it could be indicative of a lack of Blood Rage. While there's no way for Eve to know of any genetic deviance (unless Mordin told her in passing), the ME wiki doesn't list "Rage" as one of Wrex's powers in ME1, and there's not much in favor of its existence in Wrex. (In Favor: "I AM URDNOT WREX AND THIS IS MY PLANET!", "When his fury is unleashed, it is a terrifying sight"(ME wiki); In Disfavor: the fact that he "rarely loses his temper" (ME wiki), his competent leadership of Clan Urdnot; Grunt's static power "Krogan Berserker" specifically states his blood rage, while Wrex's doesn't; can go either way: "Rage" is only listed in multiplayer Krogan.) Besides, it's in character for Eve, especially since she's virtually the only krogan (male or female) who sees the problems ME1 Wrex did (and ME2 Wrex began to fix).

[LordShotGun]

But given the choice between curing them completely, and merely weakening the genophage to say, 1 in 50 (up from 1 in 1000) I would personally go that route. Still slow, but a given pair of Krogan can still sire dozens in a lifetime if they focus on doing that (rather than rushing off to war or other conflicts.) Maybe even 1 in 10.

Which is what mordin TRIED to do. He wanted to stabilize krogan populations back to normal levels not neuter them. Every female was capable of giving birth, it was just that the females would lose hope after giving birth to 999 stillborns and not waiting for that 1000th one. Only the krogans saw this normal birthrate as hopeless for survival (and possibly was with the females committing suicide out of despair) and went off to do their own thing.

[Calemyr]

I'm not sure I can agree with that. Wrex and Eve definitely are forward thinking, no argument there. However, Wrex seemed to definitely rule by intimidation and fear. You step out of line and you don't get access to the woman. You argue with Wrex and he headbutts your face in. Wrex's leadership style was incredibly stereotypical of the normal violent Krogan, the only difference was he actually had a brain.

And even then, many of the Krogan we talk to about it in the second game are angry and annoyed by the fact Wrex is in charge. The scientist for example thinks he's wasting time not making things blow up. Now some of them definitely respect his intelligence, but that is not it. A large part of the krogan mindset is still inherently violent.

And Eve's leadership seems almost entirely determined by the fact that she's genophage free. Thankfully again, she's not violent about it. We know there are some krogan woman who definitely do want revenge for the genophage. Now with Wrex in charge I think they can make a good team to hopefully curb some of the krogan's tendencies (I hope, I'm not certain it will actually work). With Wreav in charge? No. He views Eve as property. He wishes for violence and vengeance. He represents the old views of the krogan and it is not pretty, and does not yet deserve the cure.

While it is certainly true that Wrex isn't above using force to get his way, he does seem to try to avoid it. Clan Urdnot does not act against outcast clans, opting instead to sit back and let his allies take them out. All the violence needed to keep the clans in line, but little of it coming from the leadership. That sets a new tone for the Krogan. Wrex insists that while his clan is currently dominant, every clan brings something meaningful to the race and readily acknowledges their contributions. If Weyrlock was any example, this is a fairly new tone as well. Finally, his approach is an open-armed approach that focuses on cooperation and unity rather than raw dominance, and that is definitely a new tone. Wrex also uses his assistance to Palaven as evidence that the Krogan have galactic merit rather than simple martial superiority, which is also a new tone. Put bluntly, Urdnot Wrex is as close to a hippie as the Krogan come.

How does he get away with this? By backing this peacenik counter-culture crap with a resume a mile long comprised of complete and total badass. Taking down a mature thresher maw on foot, taking down Saren, not to mention all the stories he may or may not have told. Wrex isn't a hippie because he's afraid or unable to fight, he's a hippie because he's so awesome that he's not afraid to get along.

As for Eve, she holds a lot of sway due to being tied to the male leader of the Krogan beyond being the symbol of the of the genophage. She can influence Wreav simply by controlling his opportunity to sire the next generation. Paired with Wrex, however, the two make eachother a lot stronger. With Wrex's full support to her initiatives, Eve's influence on the female clans is assured, and with the female clans backing Wrex, going along with his initiatives is far more profitable than trying to resist.

[Psyren]

Which is what mordin TRIED to do. He wanted to stabilize krogan populations back to normal levels not neuter them. Every female was capable of giving birth, it was just that the females would lose hope after giving birth to 999 stillborns and not waiting for that 1000th one. Only the krogans saw this normal birthrate as hopeless for survival (and possibly was with the females committing suicide out of despair) and went off to do their own thing.

Yeah, the Salarians bungled the math pretty badly. ("Too many variables.") That doesn't mean the concept was untenable, merely that they dropped a decimal point somewhere.

Pity that when they had a chance to fix it, and by they I mean Mordin, they didn't look at the Krogan situation at all, merely concluding "1 in 1000? Yeah that's what we arrived at before, roll it forward and punch the clock so we can get off this dustball."


As far as Wrex and Eve, all I can heartily recommend is that we take Garrus' suggestion of getting them both a food-taster.

[BRC]

To be fair, that kind of thinking is different enough from the krogan norm that it could be indicative of a lack of Blood Rage. While there's no way for Eve to know of any genetic deviance (unless Mordin told her in passing), the ME wiki doesn't list "Rage" as one of Wrex's powers in ME1, and there's not much in favor of its existence in Wrex. (In Favor: "I AM URDNOT WREX AND THIS IS MY PLANET!", "When his fury is unleashed, it is a terrifying sight"(ME wiki); In Disfavor: the fact that he "rarely loses his temper" (ME wiki), his competent leadership of Clan Urdnot; Grunt's static power "Krogan Berserker" specifically states his blood rage, while Wrex's doesn't; can go either way: "Rage" is only listed in multiplayer Krogan.) Besides, it's in character for Eve, especially since she's virtually the only krogan (male or female) who sees the problems ME1 Wrex did (and ME2 Wrex began to fix).

Rarely losing his temper and competent leadership are signs of a strong will and intelligence, not a mutation.

According to the Codex the Blood Rage is caused by a quirk in Krogan Biology where Adrenaline suppresses Serotonin, so a Krogan who starts to get Angry (Adrenaline) will have lots of trouble calming down and will become increasingly aggressive as the Adrenaline flooding their system switches their brain over to Fight-Or-Flight (Who am I kidding, Fight) mode. After the Krogans nuked Tuchanka, scare resources meant that Krogan WITH this mutation did much better, since their adrenaline-flooded systems could fight longer and harder. When you consider the Pre-genophage Krogan breeding rates, it's easy to see how what was once a rare mutation became commonplace (Those without it are killed or driven away from resources by those who have it, with access to resources the Blood Rage Krogan are able to breed, passing on the gene to their many children)
I think it's more likely that Wrex is simply strong-willed enough to force himself to calm down before he gets Drunk on adrenaline and does something he regrets, rather than anything genetic. The Blood Rage dosn't cause Krogan to lose their temper, it just means that, when they do, they get very violent and stop feeling pain. If Wrex is unusual, it's because he can fight that instinct and approach situations logically.

Wrex isn't a Krogan X-Man, he's Krogan Batman.


Edit: Concerning the Krogan Birthrates, it actually makes sense that the Salarians would make that mistake. Salarians have no sex drive, and consider reproduction a biological necessity rather than anything else. They had their math right, they didn't know their xenosociology. Maybe because they did not actually intend to use the Genophage when they made it (That was the Turian's decision), but they didn't realize the impact it would have on Krogan society.

[Morty]

As far as Wrex and Eve, all I can heartily recommend is that we take Garrus' suggestion of getting them both a food-taster.

Makes you wonder what sort of poison would work on a Krogan anyway.

[Luzahn]

Krogan "poison" probably consists of explosives hidden in the food.

They were never very subtle.

[Jeivar]

Say, I haven't been following the news lately; What's the latest word on the supposed ending-fix DLC? Anything concrete on the release date or the content? I heard that it will just expand the current ending and provide some kind of closure, rather than edit out the whole hated, out-of-nowhere, makes-no-sense Starkid thing.
Which doesn't give me much hope that a second playthrough will be worth it.

[Landis963]

Say, I haven't been following the news lately; What's the latest word on the supposed ending-fix DLC? Anything concrete on the release date or the content? I heard that it will just expand the current ending and provide some kind of closure, rather than edit out the whole hated, out-of-nowhere, makes-no-sense Starkid thing.
Which doesn't give me much hope that a second playthrough will be worth it.

As far as I've heard, it'll be released "this summer". So no, no release date, no word on content beyond just answering some of the non-starbrat-related questions. Such as: Why did Joker make the jump away from Sol in the first place?

[Jeivar]

Such as: Why did Joker make the jump away from Sol in the first place?

Wow. Yay. That was totally my biggest issue with the ending.

[Calemyr]

Say, I haven't been following the news lately; What's the latest word on the supposed ending-fix DLC? Anything concrete on the release date or the content? I heard that it will just expand the current ending and provide some kind of closure, rather than edit out the whole hated, out-of-nowhere, makes-no-sense Starkid thing.
Which doesn't give me much hope that a second playthrough will be worth it.

Here's what I've heard so far:
Release: Summer
Content:
* No actual change to the plot: story remains the same, but "clarified". We still get the kid, the fireworks, the fleeing Joker, stargazer, these elements will just (ideally) be justified in the DLC.

* No new gameplay: it's all supposedly cut-scenes and dialogue sequences.

* No implied holocaust: Word of god says nobody starved to death. Hopefully we'll see how. Also, Relays were apparently a convenience, not a necessity. Again, hopefully we'll see how.

* Possibility for a "golden" ending: Apparently bouncing blue babies are not out of the question in this ending, though every outcome will require significant sacrifice.

What they've said so far is not really helping the polarized community. Many are taking it as either self-righteous justification or a simple middle finger to their fans. Many are seeing it as a chance to do it right this time around.

I personally sit in the second camp. The ending wasn't without merit, really. It was just really poorly done. If they take the time to do it right (and if they have the space for the resources), they have an opportunity to make it work.

I really want to see them do it, I really do. I'm not holding my breath, though. Their attitude on this fiasco hasn't seemed to change since day 2, when they were so hurt that we were too dumb to see their artistic brilliance.

[Psyren]

* No new gameplay: it's all supposedly cut-scenes and dialogue sequences.

Source on this? Someone tweeted the same thing to Gamble, and his response was "you heard wrong."

What they've said so far is not really helping the polarized community. Many are taking it as either self-righteous justification or a simple middle finger to their fans. Many are seeing it as a chance to do it right this time around.

Faced with change of any kind, no fanbase above a certain size is going to avoid polarization. Bioware attempting to do so would be little more than a fool's errand.

Their attitude on this fiasco hasn't seemed to change since day 2, when they were so hurt that we were too dumb to see their artistic brilliance.

If that were really true, would there even BE free DLC?

[GloatingSwine]

If that were really true, would there even BE free DLC?

EA/Bioware's attitude does really need work.

I mean sure, the quote is technically true, but cutting it out of context (that the fan reaction is overwhelmingly negative) like that is deceptive in the extreme.

They really seem to have their heads so far up their own ********s that they actually don't get what the issues are that people have with them.

[Psyren]

The ad? I thought it was deviously clever. Lemonade out of lemons, and all that.

Maybe I'd be angrier about it if it was misrepresenting me, but considering my reaction to the game was positive overall I merely found it amusing.

[Luzahn]

The ad? I thought it was deviously clever. Lemonade out of lemons, and all that.

Maybe I'd be angrier about it if it was misrepresenting me, but considering my reaction to the game was positive overall I merely found it amusing.

Yup. I applaud their audacity.

And on the ending morality itself, I may disagree with the principle behind our choices from a moral stance, but that's a personal issue. If they are at least well done, they will be perfectly acceptable.

Though my ideal response will always be shooting the starkid in the head/holoprojector and having the fleets go out in a blaze of defiance while taking the reapers with them.

[Joran]

EA/Bioware's attitude does really need work.

I mean sure, the quote is technically true, but cutting it out of context (that the fan reaction is overwhelmingly negative) like that is deceptive in the extreme.

They really seem to have their heads so far up their own ********s that they actually don't get what the issues are that people have with them.

It's marketing, you do whatever you have to do to sell your product. It's a completely separate department from the developers. You can read into it all you want, but it has nothing to do with the people actually making the game.

P.S. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the Bioware developers know exactly what the issues are. The problem is they have only a few limited options to fix it. They can't rewind time and re-release the game; a lot of that joy and surprise that should come from the ending is just lost. Even if they went back and put in some foreshadowing elements in earlier parts of the game about Starkid, some people will always regard it as coming out of left field. So, they're doing what they can do: expand and explain the ending we were given. Give a sense of closure, give the players an idea of what the future of the Mass Effect universe holds.

[LordShotGun]

The ad? I thought it was deviously clever. Lemonade out of lemons, and all that.

Maybe I'd be angrier about it if it was misrepresenting me, but considering my reaction to the game was positive overall I merely found it amusing.

But the ad specifically says that the reaction was toward the endings. While I agree that ME3 was over all pretty good, the ad is calling out the fan hatred towards the endings and calling it a good thing.


The rest of the game aside, can you really say that you had zero problems with the ending?

[Joran]

But the ad specifically says that the reaction was toward the endings. While I agree that ME3 was over all pretty good, the ad is calling out the fan hatred towards the endings and calling it a good thing.


The rest of the game aside, can you really say that you had zero problems with the ending?

Not directed at me, but I can jump in. Yes. I had zero problems with the ending.

I had the common nitpicks (where did Starkid come from, why is Joker running away, although I attributed Joker running away to me killing EDI and him trying to save her), but I got my big boom, my galaxy-saving, Reaper-slaying blast. My Shepard died a hero and saved the galaxy from the oppression of genocidal robots.

I wasn't bothered by Starkid's assertions for the necessity of the Reapers, because I viewed it as the rantings, self-justifications of a mass murderer. I didn't want to argue with him, because I was just looking for the "KILL ALL THE REAPERS" button. I saved the Geth, but was more than willing to kill them and the Reapers. So, no, I got the conclusion I was looking for and was satisfied.

P.S. Marketing people are paid to turn negatives into positives. Also, the quote they pulled is objectively true; they just happen to omit the context ;)

[Luzahn]

But the ad specifically says that the reaction was toward the endings. While I agree that ME3 was over all pretty good, the ad is calling out the fan hatred towards the endings and calling it a good thing.


The rest of the game aside, can you really say that you had zero problems with the ending?

The thing is, they didn't say the hatred of the the endings was a good thing. They said that the endings were a thing. Tricksy bastards.

[Psyren]

But the ad specifically says that the reaction was toward the endings. While I agree that ME3 was over all pretty good, the ad is calling out the fan hatred towards the endings and calling it a good thing.

As I routinely say, not all the fans hated the endings. Their statement in the ad is accurate - the response has been loud, and it is all the louder because not everyone is shouting the same thing, nor will they - ever.

The rest of the game aside, can you really say that you had zero problems with the ending?

Zero problems? No, of course not; the endings are inadequate, so I'm looking forward to the EC as much as everyone else is. The difference is that I'm so close to being satisfied already that they'd really have to drop the ball to upset me, and I doubt that's going to happen.

The endings quite simplyhave more potential than the vocal minority are willing to give them credit for. And while I can agree that it is a failing to force the fans to fill in the blanks of your narrative themselves, many fans choose to fill those blanks anyway - just with the gloomiest, dreariest doomsday scenarios they can conjure up instead.

[BRC]

Well, the quote actually DOES reflect well on the game, just not in the way they want it to.

The Fan Outcry isn't just because the ending sucked. Borderland's ending sucked and they weren't sued, Deus Ex Human Revolution did the Ending-tron 8000, but there was no massive fan campaign.

The Fan Reaction is because we got so invested in the game, it reflects the game's ability to draw you in and make you care, and then, when you're on the edge of your seat...it asks you to pick a color.

[Derthric]

Yup. I applaud their audacity.

And on the ending morality itself, I may disagree with the principle behind our choices from a moral stance, but that's a personal issue. If they are at least well done, they will be perfectly acceptable.

Though my ideal response will always be shooting the starkid in the head/holoprojector and having the fleets go out in a blaze of defiance while taking the reapers with them.

There is an episode of the Dilbert Cartoon where he goes to work for the perfect engineering company making products meant to better humanity. Then mentions that its odd they don't have a marketing department which leads them to making one and going straight hell.

Marketing, communications, lobbying is all the same thing as a giant jerk trying to impress a girl at the bar. They are going to throw out everything they have at this shot and if it works great if not, well they well just move one stool down. Its about broad based marketing and mass info.

I've worked in politics, its the same darn thing. Just say what you want to say and hopefully you get that 50+1%. Same thing here, just push your line and hopefully you get enough people to keep buying.

Not directed at me, but I can jump in. Yes. I had zero problems with the ending.

I had the common nitpicks (where did Starkid come from, why is Joker running away, although I attributed Joker running away to me killing EDI and him trying to save her), but I got my big boom, my galaxy-saving, Reaper-slaying blast. My Shepard died a hero and saved the galaxy from the oppression of genocidal robots.

I wasn't bothered by Starkid's assertions for the necessity of the Reapers, because I viewed it as the rantings, self-justifications of a mass murderer. I didn't want to argue with him, because I was just looking for the "KILL ALL THE REAPERS" button. I saved the Geth, but was more than willing to kill them and the Reapers. So, no, I go the conclusion I was looking for and was satisfied.

P.S. Marketing people are paid to turn negatives into positives. Also, the quote they pulled is objectively true; they just happen to omit the context ;)

I think they were hoping for more reactions like yours. You filled in the blanks to make the story fit your desired outcome. And for you it worked.

The problem comes with blanks being filled in by such a large and disparate group of people that turmoil is inevitable. Look at the looooong debate Psyren and I have had about the potential Galactic Dark Age. Or on how without lasting peace synthesis is just body horror, my stance.

If they had just had us hit the button kill the reapers and the Relays went, without the Catalyst then I think it would have worked better. But so many blanks and plot twists are introduced in such a short time. 14 lines of Dialogue expound an idea mentioned only a handful of times, extrapolate it into the final definition of the a conflict spanning a trilogy and wrap it up all at once. That's a recipe for disaster.

[Luzahn]

There is an episode of the Dilbert Cartoon where he goes to work for the perfect engineering company making products meant to better humanity. Then mentions that its odd they don't have a marketing department which leads them to making one and going straight hell.

Hah, I remember that one.

[LordShotGun]

Not directed at me, but I can jump in. Yes. I had zero problems with the ending.

I had the common nitpicks (where did Starkid come from, why is Joker running away, although I attributed Joker running away to me killing EDI and him trying to save her), but I got my big boom, my galaxy-saving, Reaper-slaying blast. My Shepard died a hero and saved the galaxy from the oppression of genocidal robots.

I wasn't bothered by Starkid's assertions for the necessity of the Reapers, because I viewed it as the rantings, self-justifications of a mass murderer. I didn't want to argue with him, because I was just looking for the "KILL ALL THE REAPERS" button. I saved the Geth, but was more than willing to kill them and the Reapers. So, no, I got the conclusion I was looking for and was satisfied.

P.S. Marketing people are paid to turn negatives into positives. Also, the quote they pulled is objectively true; they just happen to omit the context ;)

No offense but it made me laugh when you said "zero problems with the ending" and then immediately afterward say "except for the common nit picks".