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2011-12-31, 08:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Originally Posted by Maquis
Everyone else, including the mighty Ultramarines and other large Founding Legions, are kept entirely in the dark by order of the Emperor himself.
The implication being that there is no interaction between the Black Templars and the Grey Knights - the former does not know that the latter exists, let alone what they are capable of.
Conversely, if the BT's ever did find out about it, the GK's and the Inquisition have the authority to kill every BT involved and then disappear before anyone could ask any questions regardless of the BT's reactions.
Although, we can make an educated guess, given their actions towards other unusually organised Chapters, that the Black Templars would probably declare a massive Crusade against the Grey Knights for what they perceive as massively heretical activities, and as the Grey Knights aren't predisposed towards explaining themselves to anyone outside their own Ordo....
.....By and large, this sort of thing gets filed under "It's not going to happen, because that sort of thing would destroy the Imperium" and isn't talked about.
Grey Knights were originally secretive, but most Imperial Forces seemed to know of their existence as an incredibly powerful, super-elite Space Marine Chapter, if nothing else about them.
Now they are an utter X-File, with the authority (and, apparently, physical strength) to mindwipe companies of other Space Marines and to commit genocide on 'Guard regiments who have seen them in action.
Grey Knights were originally powerful psykers, who had abilities focused towards making themselves faster, stronger and spiritually reinforced against Daemonic taint, and to banishing Daemons back to the Warp.
Now they are multipurpose psykers and are also Sorcerers who use everything from the same Vortex Of Doom-style powers available to all other Space Marines, to sacrificing 'pure' Imperial citizens in order to begin Blood Rituals in order to fight against Khornate Daemons.
So.... Yes. Very different.Last edited by Wraith; 2011-12-31 at 08:07 AM.
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2012-01-02, 05:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Some chapters (the Space Wolves, the Blood Angels) have fought beside the Grey Knights- but with their warriors being mindwiped afterward by special agreement (at least, in the case of the Blood Angels).
So- while much of the higher echelons of the Imperial Military don't know about them, a small proportion do.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-01-02, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Well.... not exactly.
The way I've seen it, if you go by this idea that "The Grey Knights are so super secret, that if you see them, they can kill you" is a bit silly, when you consider that in fluff, they are not exactly kept incredibly secret from other races.
Chaos obviously knows them, Because that's who GK fight the most. Also, having your Current Chapter Master wandering the Warp, only to pop in, say "Hi, how's the chapter doing? Good? Oh there's a war here? Ok let's banish some demons" every few centuries, means that I'm sure most Chaos Demons know about them by now.
It's probably fair to say, that several Alien races know them. Eldar definitely know some info about them. Tau, not so much (Having Zero psykers, who, for the most part, aren't dealing with a significant chance of Demonic Incursion, probably helps). Orks probably look at them, as like any other Space Marine force, just rather shiny looking, and a puzzled confusion when weird things start happening all over the battle field. At which point, it goes from "It's a Space Marine!" to: "It's one of dem' posh zoggin' Space marine Weird Boyz!" It's hinted at that the GK and Inquisition has worked with/Stolen from other, less known/unknown alien races for some tech. Though, this being 40k, and depending on who was handling the trade, this could range anywhere between a simple Business like transaction/trade, all the way to "Thanks for the tech, xenos. Here, have an Exterminatus".
We know some, if not all Space Marine Chapters, at least those in high rank (I.E. Chapter Masters) known about them. Obviously, there may be a few exceptions (Black Templars, are indeed, a good question). Logan Grimnar of the Space Wolves knows about them because looking at the lore, he was the one who called for aid from the Grey Knights to help out during the first war for Armageddon. So it's probably safe to presume, that overall, most Chapter masters know about them, in case they have to step back and go "Whoa.. ok, we may need some extra help on this one"
And we know that in some cases, Imperial Guard Regiments might be mind blanked if they served well and held loyal through out the battle. (Though it's also indicated, that not every single one survives the process, though the reasons can vary to suspected taint/resistant to the process, to unfortunate accident, caused by the stress/pain/etc of the process.)
The "Forced labor concentration camps/Execution/Mind blank" part, looks more like it's done out of "You have seen too many warp-spawned horrors, it's for your own good" due to concern for corruption or taint. Not "You have seen us, and we can not let you live in danger of us being known."Last edited by Razgriez; 2012-01-02 at 07:12 AM.
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2012-01-02, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Originally Posted by hamishspence
I'm not disagreeing with you that it's silly. But apparently that really is what they do, canonically, to most people who see them in action and aren't other Space Marines. (Page 13 of Codex: Grey Knights states it in detail) *shrugs*
Chaos obviously knows them, Because that's who GK fight the most.
It's probably fair to say, that several Alien races know them. Eldar definitely know some info about them.
By all means, please prove me wrong, but I cannot think of anything in the Codex or other lore that says that the Grey Knights have direct diplomatic dealings with anyone other than the Inquisition. Otherwise, what the Eldar know about Grey Knights probably wouldn't be much more than a vague outline?
Logan Grimnar of the Space Wolves knows about them because looking at the lore, he was the one who called for aid from the Grey Knights to help out during the first war for Armageddon.
[While the Imperial Guardsmen are executed,] Space Marines are too valuable a commodity to wilfully be cast aside, and so are instead subjected to a more time-consuming, but markedly safer, mind-wipe process. Most go willingly, readily making a sacrifice of self so that they might continue to serve the Emperor. Those few who resist share the fate of the Imperial Guardsmen. Once again, there are exceptions, but only those very few Chapters in which the Inquisition has complete trust (or at least as close to complete trust as an organisation such as the Inquisition can permit....)
The "Forced labor concentration camps/Execution/Mind blank" part, looks more like it's done out of "You have seen too many warp-spawned horrors, it's for your own good" due to concern for corruption or taint.~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
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2012-01-02, 09:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-01-02, 09:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
The Inquisition, in fact, asked Logan for help during the 13th Crusade, where he once again commanded - or directed - Grey Knights for the second time. Where he was named Lord Solar - again!
"Despite the lore for Armageddon." Well, no. You can't just remove it. Because it happened. True story.
And it's not so much the Inquisition that hates the Space Wolves, that's not even it at all. It's Logan that hates the High Lords, or the Adeptus Terra. The Inquisition doesn't have a whole lot to do with it except as agents of Terra.
The Space Wolves and Terra were best friends until Logan.
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2012-01-02, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
On the Eldar issue, don't forget, there's a score of Purifiers, who were placed on the remains of Craftworld Malan'tai after clensing it of a Slaneesh Greater Demon on a "All the Spirit stones you eat Buffet" after Malan'tai got wrecked by some Tyranids. And their job is to remain on board, guarding it, until another Eldar Craftworld is in range to recover the remaining spirit stones. (Story given on Page 14)
Plus, surely the Eldar would sense some sort of psyker ability from the Grey Knights? And in the other cases, of gaining Xenos tech from other races. Yes, I'm sure Ordo Xenos Inqusitors probably do the majority of the work. That's not to say there's a chance a few Grey Knights might possibly be with them, wanting to know about technology they might be using soon.
With Chaos, we know that several Greater Demons, have fought and been banished multiple times by the Grey Knights, and there are rivalries between some of them, Brother Captain Stern vs. M'Kachen for example. And the ones who have fought Lord Kaldor Draigo.
Also on Page 14 of the GK codex, is the Raxos Civil War, where Civilians were being evacuated off planet, and covered by the Grey Knights, to assist in escaping.... well they almost, up until Stern realizes that their target, had managed to sneak on board one of the evacuation shuttles, and were forced to destroy all of them to prevent the Changeling from escaping.
That's not to say that there are secrets about the Grey Knights that they would kill someone to protect. Indeed, I'm sure to the casual observer, they are just, a rather unique looking Space Marine force. And yes, the GK, and the Inquisition, would completely wipe out the planet's populace and defenders, if they deem it better than to risk Chaos corrupting them anytime soon. It's been seen on Armageddon, as well as Tarsis (which happened at least once, possibly twice after the end of the game/book) in the Dawn of War Series.Last edited by Razgriez; 2012-01-02 at 09:58 AM.
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2012-01-06, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
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2012-01-07, 08:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the First War of Armageddon one of the main reasons why Logan started not liking the Inquisition, when the orders came down to execute every single Guardsman on the planet after the war was over?
As Cheesegear said, no reason to think the Space Wolves didn't get along with Terra beforehand, so I can't see any reason why Logan wouldn't call for the Grey Knights to get rid of a Daemon Prince (if he knew of their existence) After the 'cleanup' I can see him not wanting to, but not before.Last edited by Ailurus; 2012-01-07 at 08:53 AM.
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2012-01-22, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Anyone want to discuss the new Ciaphas Cain novel The Last Ditch?
Among other things, it tends to support the notion that Tyranids have been afflicting the galaxy for a very long time- with a ship that crash landed on a planet long before the earliest previously mentioned Hive Fleets.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-01-22, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
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2012-01-23, 01:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
QFT. Tyranids being around for a long time isn't new. Inquisition War - set in M36 - deals with Genestealers quite a bit. I'm also uh...Not reading Cain books for the time being anyway. Unless something has drastically changed about the character?
I'm told that Last Ditch is basically Caves of Ice 2.0. Has Mitchell delved into the NewCrons (the bad kind of Necrons)? Or are they still lol!Crons that just show up and kill everything and leave (the good kind of Necrons, the ones Mitchell wrote pre-new-Codex).
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2012-01-23, 08:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Aren't creatures like Catachan Devils and Fenris Kraken supposedly descended from Tyranids, showing that single displaced Hive Fleet splinters may have reached our galaxy even earlier than that?
Haven't read Last Ditch yet; I'm not even through Emperor's Finest. Been too busy painting minis to read lately, which I guess isn't the worst thing for a Warhammer enthusiast.LGBTitP Supporter
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2012-01-23, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
The whole story that I can piece together from Lexicanum (quite a lot of which is substantiated by the last 2 editions of Codices Tyranids and Space Marines) goes as such:
Genestealers were first believed to have arrived in the Milky Way in M35 as part of what is now known as Hive Fleet Tiamat, though in reality might just be a tiny group of Tyranids that were blown off course by Solar winds and settled on the moons of Ymgarl, in the Tiamat System.
Left to their own devices, the proto-Nids of Ymgarl eventually evolved enough to spread out as far as Segmentum Obscuris, which explains the number of monstrous creatures such as Catachan Devils apparently sharing many Genestealer characteristics.
However, they were likely brought in greater numbers aboard drifting Space Hulks at pretty much any given date. Nobody knows for sure how many drifting Space Hulks have been recorded, let alone how many actually exist unchecked, and any or even all of them could bring any number of horrors back from outside the Galaxy. Some of them may even have bumped into Admiral Usurs coming the other way and hitched a ride.
The additional implications are that Tyranid DNA arrived in our system entirely by accident. The Genestealers found the Imperium purely by a freak coincidence, and called the rest of the Swarm just because the place looked nice and tasty.....
The Tyranids as a faction, in all their various forms and flavours, arrived in the Milky Way first at the assault on Tyran in 745.M41. Hilarity ensued shortly thereafter.
It wasn't until the aftermath of the Battle for Macragge a year later when Technomagi, investigating and classifying the remains of the creatures that had invaded Ultramar, discovered that Genestealers were genetically codified as Tyranids also.Last edited by Wraith; 2012-01-23 at 10:54 AM.
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2012-01-23, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
It does mention the M35 date.
Initially the Tyranids in The Last Ditch are thought to have arrived there some 7000 years ago- noted to be somewhat earlier than M35.
Later, they realize that those Nids are much, much older. With the "comet" that turned the planet into an iceball all those years ago, actually being the hiveship.
Necrons don't make an appearence. Nids first seen in the new codex (mawloc, tervigon) do, however.
This novel is chronologically shortly after The Traitor's Hand (specifically, 942.M41).Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-01-23, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Out of curiosity, was Space Hulk the earliest instance of the Genestealers as antagonists, or does their Rogue Trader mention also lists stats as well?
I remember there was an After Action Report in the front of the 1st Ed rule book detailing how much of a complete [redacted] the Blood Angel's first encounter with 'stealers aboard a Space Hulk was, but I'm fairly sure the actual missions of the game was set ~600 years later.
There was a background book as well, which also listed the first time an Imperial world was lost to a genestealer cult infiltration and planetary revolt.
Edit: According to a copy of the manual I found on the internet, the AAR is apparently dated 989.M41. I need to find my copy of the game to verify this, because it sounds far too recent to match up with the M35 initial date of contact.Last edited by Brother Oni; 2012-01-23 at 06:25 PM.
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2012-01-23, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Though they looked very different - and at the time, definitely were an individual species, as Tyranids in general didn't exist - Genestealers did exist in Rogue Trader. I don't remember anything about their stats, though RT's system was very different to what it is now so it probably wouldn't mean much if I could.
The one on the top left is right out of the Rogue trader rulebook, just in case you were wondering.~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
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2012-01-23, 07:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-01-24, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Next month? It came out on the 21st. Though I suppose the bookshops might get it later.
And those aren't that important to the plot. The blurb on the back of the book tells us about a terrible enemy that's lain dormant since before the Imperium came to the sector- so you don't need to have read the book to know that bit.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-01-24, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
While things are usually different for Australia, I for one, can attest that I could've bought the book last Saturday (the 21st), and I opted not to. Instead I bought the second Blood Angels Omnibus, Luthor Huss, and Labyrinth of Sorrows.
Also, Emperor's Finest was released in non-stupid paperback form. Which I considered getting because hard-back books annoy me. I should probably start using my Kindle more.
But, looking at the Black Library website, yes, in fact, you can't actually buy any of them?
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2012-01-24, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Last edited by hamishspence; 2012-01-24 at 05:35 PM.
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2012-01-24, 07:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Black Library's website lists the release date as February. Also there's a difference between "ancient evil lying dormant since before the Imperium arrived" and "X wasn't Y, it was Z all along!"
In other news, Deliverance Lost is awesome. The Alpha Legion's involvement is minimal, but well played and there is some continuation from the events of Legion.
Corax's childhood is examined in depth, and the Emperor gets some good pagetime to follow on from his great appearance in Outcast Dead. I'd easily rate the book equal with Thousand Sons, Outcast Dead and Mechanicum, my favourites in the series.Princess in the streets.
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2012-01-25, 02:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Like I said, I need to use my Kindle more. While Black Library is refusing to license to Amazon, pretty much all their books are downloadable now in Kindle format, so that's an even better plus.
Is my GW weird then? Are they supposed to be selling books this early?
In other news, Deliverance Lost is awesome. The Alpha Legion's involvement is minimal, but well played and there is some continuation from the events of Legion.
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2012-01-25, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Regardless, it's still only been out for what, five days? Still a bit early for non-spoilers on anything concrete methinks.
But anyways...
I took an uncharacteristically long time to read it. But, I quite liked it. Imperial Fists are in it...And awesome.
Spoilerwhen the various Alpharii are revealed they hadn't used their real names for so long I'd sort of forgotten who was who (ie which Alpharius was Ort etc).
I would have liked to see the 'main' Alpharius have a bit more of a moral dillemma over killing the Raven Guard, or even to have truely become a Raven Guard, but oh well.
The Emperor's museum was a great scene too.
Been trying to listen to Dead in the Water, and I'm finding that the dialogue is noticably quieter than the prose. So listening to it either means that I'm struggling to hear the speach or the rest is a little too loud.
Anyone else found this? Admittedly I wasn't listening to it in the most quiet of places, but still.
The story itself isn't too bad so far, though thanks to Cheese I kept noticing him saying "if I'd known now what I'd known then..." Or maybe it's that he says it three or four times in the space of ten minutes.
The production is great with subtle sound effects used sparingly. Cain is a hell of a lot more gravelly than I'd imagined. The commanding man-voice would make a great Gaunt or Yarrick, but for Cain I'd always imagined him as a more Colin Firth or serious, non-fake American Hugh Laurie sounding type.Princess in the streets.
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2012-01-25, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
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2012-01-25, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
Well, that would be one of the viable ways of finding galaxies, wouldn't it? Send out a massive net of genestealer colonies in all directions, which call the Swarm if they manage to find a large enough saturation of organics to reach critical mass. The other option would be to somehow find a galaxy, calculate its trajectory compared to yours, and then figure out where it would be when you got there and go there, something the Nids could probably do, but it seems out of character.
Last edited by Arcanoi; 2012-01-25 at 06:06 PM.
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2012-01-25, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
I meant, as opposed to the idea that the Tyranids are being 'chased' into the Milky Way by something even bigger and scarier than they are, which is one of the popular theories as to why they're suddenly appearing en masse.
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2012-01-31, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
You say?
*cough* The Traitor's Hand... Death or Glory... The Emperor's Finest... The Beguiling... Traitor's Gambit... - not a single Necron or Tyranid in there...
And arguably Duty Calls, For the Emperor and Cain's Last Stand, where Tyranids/Necrons appear for a few pages with real big bads being Chaos/Traitors. Always?
And what exactly changed in them he needs to change anything?
In fact, "new" Necrons are more similar to Cain's ones than the old, IMHO.
Um... Except, that's not exactly true, since I recall at least 3-4 short stories/blurbs in Cainverse set in 06-08.M42, willingness of the author to go past that barrier being one of the things making him unique...
And if you believe Eisenhorn, Czevak, Ravenor, Gaunt or Ventris will die I have a few Cadian pylons for sale for really small amount of teef :P
Oh, and if you really want unkillable characters, Roboute, Russ, Dorn & co *gasp!* will (with 100% certainty) survive their own series, too. Still, that's not the point of reading about them, IMHO.
IIRC, they have really small supply of TL plundered from somewhere that is about to run out, sadly.
BT organizing Crusade against unusually organized Chapters? When?
Plus, that would require them to start with a certain 'faux-legion' bunch of outcasts, which would be a rather curious thing to witness
Grey Knights were originally secretive, but most Imperial Forces seemed to know of their existence as an incredibly powerful, super-elite Space Marine Chapter, if nothing else about them.
Now they are an utter X-File, with the authority (and, apparently, physical strength) to mindwipe companies of other Space Marines and to commit genocide on 'Guard regiments who have seen them in action.
Grey Knights were originally powerful psykers, who had abilities focused towards making themselves faster, stronger and spiritually reinforced against Daemonic taint, and to banishing Daemons back to the Warp.
Now they are multipurpose psykers and are also Sorcerers who use everything from the same Vortex Of Doom-style powers available to all other Space Marines, to sacrificing 'pure' Imperial citizens in order to begin Blood Rituals in order to fight against Khornate Daemons.
Sorry, I don't see much difference there, save for finally seeing their Librarians and Grand Masters we long knew they possessed.
How about, I don't know, using a telescope? Galaxy isn't exactly a small object, and it can be detected without throwing biomatter away into extragalactic space...Come one, come all! GitP MLP Steam Group is open!
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2012-01-31, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
The screwing of the defenders of Armageddon was done by the Adeptus Terra, not the Grey Knights.
Similarly, early accounts of mindwiping and murdering due to deamonic interaction are perpetrated by others - never the GKs themselves.
How about, I don't know, using a telescope? Galaxy isn't exactly a small object, and it can be detected without throwing biomatter away into extragalactic space...Princess in the streets.
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2012-01-31, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten
My impression was, it was only done by others because it was considered too wasteful to have GK sit around and lost time purging anyone, since they're urgently needed in two dozen places at once, hence, both then and now others do it instead?
But there's no guarantee the galaxy you're looking at will have compatible life, or any life at all.
Which, once you realize that that extragalactic space is so large and empty a big galaxy compared to it is smaller than planet compared to galaxy, makes little sense.Come one, come all! GitP MLP Steam Group is open!
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