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2011-09-13, 05:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Average rolls for 2d10 and 1d20 are very different. 11 vs 10.5. So if you're going to double it, it would work better to be consistent and make it 2d4, 2d6, 2d8, 2d10, 2d12. On the other hand, lots of things are dependent on Hit Dice, so doubling their HD would break things. And I doubt many people have d16s lying around, so doubling the number doesn't work too well either.
I think that making their HD become d12s and giving them Unholy Toughness is fair.Jude P.
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2011-09-13, 06:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Yeah, but unholy toughness is limited to only a select few undead, so it is far from a game changer. As a result, to make undead tougher, designers usually pile on the undead HD (also to improve their bab), which has the unintended side-effect of turn undead not working as intended.
Raw-wise, it seems easier to turn a vampire than a zombie!My humble efforts at re-cr'ing MM2
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215727
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2011-09-13, 06:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
True, I've only seen Unholy Toughness on one thing before. Though I don't look through the undead too often. I don't like undead.
Turn Undead doesn't seem to me to work very well. It's very limiting. If the BBEG is undead, you're not likely to be able to turn it because it's probably more than 4 HD higher than the party cleric, or whatever that silly limit is. At level 16 and with only moderate optimization for turning, I was rolling in the 30s regularly and by RAW only able to turn undead of up to 20 HD.Jude P.
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2011-09-13, 07:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Nobody uses their Turn Undead attempts to actually attempt turning undead. Why would anybody try such a silly thing? Those turn attempts are there to fuel your Devotion feats and DMM.
Seriously, using Turn Undead to turn undead! The idea!
Let me give you a brief rundown of an average Post-3E Era fight: You attack an enemy and start kicking his shins. He then starts kicking your shins, then you take it in turns kicking until one of you falls over. It basically comes down to who started the battle with the biggest boot, and the only strategy involved is realizing when things have gone tits up and legging it.
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2011-09-13, 07:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2005
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Even if you fix the HP thing vampires still can't run. Or be staked.
Also, related to earlier stuff, even if you fix Knowledge Devotion rangers still have favored enemies they can't identify and most creatures can't even identify their own race.
It's easier to assume any rule that references creature type is borked.
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2011-09-13, 07:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Jude P.
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2011-09-13, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
That calculation looks a bit wonky. I don't think DCs are additive for jump checks. That would be like adding in the depth of the pit you're trying to clear.
Were this a game I were running, I would just use the higher DC.
Wait. This picnic table was higher than it was wide?
Regardless, a 4 foot standing jump is not something the average commoner can do. I believe the highest standing vertical jump in the NBA is something like 45 inches. Less than four feet. I think Jordan's 48 inches was on a running jump, but that's a best case-scenario from an NBA star.
Thus, you probably have a Str of 18, Skill Focus (Jump), Athletic, and 4 ranks. Easy +14 so far. Get in a fight with a cat and see how many hp you have so we can guess at your HD.
I think average jump height is 22.1 inches, which is 1.8 feet. Same DC as a running 3.6 foot high jump. Jump DC of about 14. Pretty reasonable number. I believe jumping a mere 28 inches puts you in the 95th percentile for male standing jumps.
You've got some legs, friend.Last edited by Ursus the Grim; 2011-09-13 at 09:42 AM.
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2011-09-13, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
There's a significant difference between how much you can raise your center of gravity with a jump, and how much you can raise your feet.
Play your character, not your alignment.
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2011-09-13, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
There is indeed. When attempting to jump over or up to something, it's how high your feet get that's important. It depends on how you measure the height of a jump.
Do you know how those averages were measured? Was it how high they could get their feet?
Oh, and I can hold my own against a large dog or a drunk teenaged girl. In hand-to-hand combat I favor grappling, and nobody else understands the rules for that so I win by default. I probably don't have more than 2 HD though. I'm only seventeen.Last edited by noparlpf; 2011-09-13 at 10:29 AM.
Jude P.
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2011-09-13, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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- Finland
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Harpoon gun would probably have an exception for that, like the underwater crossbow. The two would probably be the same, actually.
The problem is that submerged targets have total cover against attacks from above water. No, wait, actually, all the cover that water grants is only against attacks from land. If you're on a ship, you're not on land, and thus water offers no cover, so you can harpoon whales!Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2011-09-13, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
I think this is why the later Corpse Crafter and Undead Mastery and such ideas came from. It's now quite easy to give them 1d12+6 HP/HD, as long as the right Necromancer made them, and I think these were put in so DMs could easily boost these monsters up to appropriate HP.
Fun disfunctional rule: they never gave the Dread Necromancer's Fear Aura a duration. You simply become shaken, that's it. It never ends. I'd guess that since it's based on the Lich ability it should be 1 round/level, but that's never stated.
JaronK
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2011-09-13, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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- My skills exceed yours!
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
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2011-09-13, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Oh, the jumping discussion's reminded me of one of the most fundamental dysfunctions in the d20 rules: How much that d20 matters in things like skill checks.
Your average human commoner, average Str, no ranks in Jump, will, 1 time in 20, fail to clear a two-foot gap with a running jump. From a standing start, he will equally often be unable to jump a gap only a foot wide. On the other hand, the same 1 time in 20, the same commoner will be able to clear a twenty-foot chasm with that running jump, or make a ten-foot standing broad jump.Play your character, not your alignment.
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2011-09-13, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
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- The Land of the Cats
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
High-jump height is based on reach. Stand with your hand in the air and mark that point... then jump straight up with your hand in the air and mark that point. Typically, they use a pole with markers on it... the highest marker you touch is your high-jump point.
Thus... high-jumping is based on how high you can reach, not how high your feet come off the ground.
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2011-09-13, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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- Finland
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
How high you can reach is determined by your high jump result plus your vertical reach, the latter given in it's own table.
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2011-09-13, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
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2011-09-13, 01:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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- Finland
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2011-09-13, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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- Mountain View, CA
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
I think she's talking about real world definitions of how to measure a high jump, and how that might affect translating real world jumps into D&D mechanics.
Stand up and reach as high as you can on a wall, and mark that spot. Jump as high as you can and touch the wall as far up as you can at the top of the jump, and mark that spot. The vertical distance between the two marks is how high you jumped.
Now, taking this system as the standard by which jumps should be measured, lifting your feet closer to your torso in the middle of the jump clearly does not increase the height of your jump even though it does increase how tall a barrier your feet can clear. Thus, clearing a 4-foot table in a standing jump as noparlpf did is not a true 4-foot jump unless you do it while remaining at full vertical extension, which I rather doubt he did.Like 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.
Avatar by Ceika.
Archives:
SpoilerSaberhagen's Twelve Swords, some homebrew artifacts for 3.5 (please comment)
Isstinen Tonche for ECL 74 playtesting.
Team Solars: Powergaming beyond your wildest imagining, without infinite loops or epic. Yes, the DM asked for it.
Arcane Swordsage: Making it actually work (homebrew)
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2011-09-13, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
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2011-09-13, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
The reaping mauler, at 3rd level gets an ability to force a save-or-sleep if he holds a pin for 1 full round. Fort save, utterly trivial DC.
However, at 5th level he then gets the ability to force a fort-save-or-die against the same abysmal DC, if he holds a pin for 3 full rounds.
Unfortunately, no one remembered the CDG rules when they were making this class. If the fort save DC is actually a threat to someone, you can put them to sleep and CDG them without having to use the "capstone" ability. What a useful capstone.
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2011-09-13, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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2011-09-13, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Like 4X (aka Civilization-like) gaming? Know programming? Interested in game development? Take a look.
Avatar by Ceika.
Archives:
SpoilerSaberhagen's Twelve Swords, some homebrew artifacts for 3.5 (please comment)
Isstinen Tonche for ECL 74 playtesting.
Team Solars: Powergaming beyond your wildest imagining, without infinite loops or epic. Yes, the DM asked for it.
Arcane Swordsage: Making it actually work (homebrew)
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2011-09-13, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Last edited by Anarchy_Kanya; 2011-09-13 at 02:05 PM.
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2011-09-13, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Jokes. Freaking jokes, man.
Alternately:
Oozes. Freaking oozes, man.
(Disclaimer: This is intended to be humorous. Subject42 does not recommend that you attempt to grapple an ooze without sufficient acid resistance and a bottle of air strapped to your face. Subject42 cannot be held liable for any harm associated with grappling oozes.)
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2011-09-13, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
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2011-09-13, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Oozes are immune to this ability.
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2011-09-13, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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2011-09-13, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
See, I come from a track and field background, so when I think high jump, I think of measuring over what height you can get your body. See, for example, this.
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Dust of Sneezing and Choking. 5d4 round stun, no save. That *really* can't be functioning as intended.
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EDIT: Though actually, you know, reading the link you provided would show me that no, D&D's high jumps are treated differently. Not my fault I figured barbarian would be more useful for it's extra move speed in track... silly tradeoff of being unable to read gets me far too often...
Still, dunking a basketball is like a DC 8-9 jump check for an average human? Wow.Last edited by CTrees; 2011-09-13 at 02:38 PM.
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2011-09-13, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Meridianville AL
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Re: "Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection
Did he remember to put cross class ranks into knowldege (local)? If not he doesn't know what race HE IS, or anything about this mysterious thing he himself is. If he DID max out his cross class ranks then we're back to a 40% chance that he STILL doesn't know anything whatsoever about his own race, including even the name.
And remember, there are no retries till you level. There's a fair chance that despite having wasted 4 of his skill points on knowldege local and 4 more on knowledge nature will NEVER figure out what race he is or that farm animal.
The rules being based on HD and 1 HD putting it out of common knowledge is utterly and totally stupid. Basically, the people writing these rules didn't read these rules, no PC race, without a skill which is cross class for most classes, can identify other members of their own race.
Maybe this helps explain all the crossbreeds that are wandering arround?Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2011-09-13 at 02:55 PM.
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2011-09-13, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011