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2012-11-29, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Good book. Much better than Ghost Story. Excellent cascading crescendo of awesome climax.
Best line in the book:
Spoiler"Demonreach, if our guest pulls the trigger, take her below and keep her there."
Random discussion and WMG:
SpoilerI liked Mab. To begin with, I was worried she was just being a bit lolevil, but she's a creepy faerie entity with a plan.
I'm mildly annoyed with He Who Walks Before character-wise; he just seems more arbitrarily powerful and less sinister. Probably because we know more about him than HWWBehind. (I'm also guessing his name is supposed to mean "He Who Walks Before [the Gate is Opened]".)
The actual Gates of the Gatekeeper seem a bit... Lame. No hold on for a moment; just seems a bit odd that the borderlands of reality have but a single gate along the whole damn wall. It is a sweet explanation for the Gatekeeper's position on the council, though if anything it seems even less pleasant. It's one thing to be responsible for keeping unknowable reality-eating horrors from breaking into the world, but to have no hours and basically be on call 24/7? Damn.
Not terribly happy with the revealed balance of the Fairy Courts. It seems like he arbitrarily made Winter sooper-awesome, and Summer has been demoted to "Well, I guess you're kind of important too..."
Been avoiding the most exceptional part so far; Demonreach is hella scary. I'm curious as to whether Nicodemus knew about it's real purpose. (Incidentally, I imagine that Nicodemus is opposing the Outsiders too. He's an evil SoB, but he wants to have a world around to plague and torment just as much as everyone else wants to have a world around to live in.) Here's hoping big M built it to last, because otherwise they may all be screwed incidentally.
(You'd think that Harry might consider using Intellectus to try and learn how Merlin did the various awesome wards and crap. Learning from a master, etc, and also patching up the parts of it that are damage, if he could.)
Question; does anyone remember when Maeve was supposed to have been infected (or whether it was stated?) It seemed to imply a specific point that might have been covered in the books, but I can't remember anything other than 'between Lea being given the Black Athame Macguffin and them running into her as a Popsicle in Arctis Tor'.
Also, seeing as Mother Summer mentioned that M. Winter had lost her walking stick, and the relative power of those two individuals, I'm betting that that will be a macguffin at some point.
Betting that the 'parasite' in Harry's head is Lash slowly reconstituting. No real reason, but my personal suspicion.
And I'm betting at some point, they're going to discover some mortal trick that's pretty damn effective against Outsiders. Even more WMG, but that's what I'm guessing."Simon Ten Broek loves to draw attention;
Simon Ten Broek spent years in bleak detention;
Simon Ten Broek, with crimes too vile to mention;
Simon Ten Broek won't live to see his pension."
10:07 PM [Matthias] And the Kohr-Ah are all "GIT THEM DUKE BOYS!"
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2012-11-29, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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2012-11-30, 01:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
So yeah, so much for my plans from tonight. Ah well. Got a day off of work, got to hang with a friend. That was something, at least.
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2012-11-30, 02:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
A small thought about the mythology of the series:
SpoilerHarry summons Mother Winter by a couple of names, names she says he "was not wholly stupid in choosing them". Now I know a bit about mythology. Athropos (which I'm guessing is Atropos) is one of the Greek Fates, known as the "chooser of death" or the "inevitable", who cut the threads of life. That fits well enough. Skuld, however, is one of the Norse Norns, similar to the Fates. Skuld is the youngest of the Norns, and signifies "future". Wouldn't Urd ("fate", or "past") have been a better fit? Maybe this was intentional, or maybe just an irrelevant mistake.
I'm kinda in the habit of hunting down any and all literary allusions, especially mythological allusions I find. This one just caught my eye.Awesome fremetar by wxdruid.
From the discomfort of truth there is only one refuge and that is ignorance. I do not need to be comfortable, and I will not take refuge. I demand to *know*.
So I guess I have an internets? | And a trophy. | And a music cookie (whatever that is).
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2012-11-30, 03:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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2012-11-30, 06:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Knoxville Tennessee
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SpoilerSo i just had a thought, Jim is on record saying that the Never Never doesn't extend past the moon, now i wonder where the outer gates were...Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.
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2012-12-01, 01:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
All things considered, it's understandable.
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2012-12-01, 02:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Okay...so....wow
Spoiler
First things first, I have to get this off my chest:
Jim, We get it, Fairy ladies are pretty. I know that having the narrator ogle some smoking dame is somewhat required here, but cut down on the number of dames if you would.
Alright, beyond that. Molly is now Winter Lady...Did not see that coming...and I accidentally opened up a spoiler tag in this thread before I started reading, so I KNEW it was coming.
I don't think I fully understand the mechanics though.
So, if a Faerie Queen dies, the Mantle passes to the nearest acceptable host, or "Vessel". If a Knight dies, it goes to the nearest queen, who then bestows it upon a willing mortal.
Okay, I get that.
When The 'Za Lord's Guard killed Aurora, Lily (A changeling of Summer, who I believe may have been the summer Knight at the time) got the mantle and became the Summer Lady, then she gave Fix the mantle of Summer Knight.
I get that.
So, how the hell does Molly count as a potential vessel? Lily was a changeling, already with one metaphysical foot in the nevernever. Molly is a mortal (wizard) human who spent a few months being trained by Leah. Why does the Mantle snap over to her? Does Mab get to pick who the mantle goes to? What even makes somebody an acceptable Queen?
Also, WMG time.
Demonreach calls Harry "Warden", at first we think it's because that's what Harry was, a warden of the white council.
Later, he learns that he's literally the Warden for the biggest Jar of Sealed Evil this side of Rl'yeh.
Why do I think that there isn't really a distinction. The Wardens are the foot soldiers for the White Council, founded by Merlin, who also built the island.
Maybe the White Council just forgot, or were made to forget, it's true purpose.
Last edited by BRC; 2012-12-01 at 02:26 AM.
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2012-12-01, 03:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SpoilerWhile I agree that the thing with Molly felt like a bit of an ass-pull, I think that Leah was supposed to somehow be molding Molly during that time, specifically with the idea of turning her into a vassal of Winter in case of just this sort of eventuality.
And I think you're exactly right about the Warden vs. warden thing, and I think that's what's pretty heavily implied in the story; that the Wardens or even the entire White Council were first organized to guard Demonreach, and just sort of lost their purpose over time.
I do have one thing that's been bugging me about Demonreach though: why there? Why in the middle of Lake Michigan? Because while it makes sense in the context of Dresden's story, in that of course it's close to Chicago, why would Merlin, a most likely European wizard, put his prison in the middle of North America? Especially when considering that in the time-frame involved, Columbus hadn't even discovered the New World yet? I know that distances like that aren't exactly the same for a wizard, and that perhaps the fact that it was so far from most of the large civilizations of the time was the entire point, but it just strikes me as a little odd.Awesome avatar by potatocubed.
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2012-12-01, 03:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Spoiler
Yeah, but I didn't think becoming a fae was something that could be taught into you.
Also, as for why Lake Michigan. First of all, Cahokia would have been operating about Merlin's time (Wikipedia tells me between 600-1400 AD, which might postdate Merlin by a little bit). Today there is nothing left but mounds, but at it's height, Cahokia rivaled the largest cities in Europe. Perhaps the Cahokians were Merlin's allies and/or skilled wizards themselves (They were sharing a continent with Skinwalkers after all, plus the Red Court seems to have been operating out of Mexico since pre-columbian times. Maybe they had their own pack of Listen-To-Winds level shapeshifters wandering around.
Also, Merlin is a time traveler (He built Deamonreach simultaneously, four different times remember), so I doubt we could pin him down to any single century. Also, there are other reasons.
The large body of water provides physical, as well as magical isolation. There isn't really anything to rival the Great Lakes in Europe or Asia. He could pick a convenient patch of ocean, but then he has to raise an island from the bottom of the ocean, rather than the bed of a lake.
Also, Ley Lines.
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2012-12-01, 03:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SpoilerYeah, those are pretty much the same reasons I came up with, but it still just feels weird to me. I just don't know why a wizard like Merlin's first choice of place to put his Super-Max Prison would be in the middle of Lake Michigan; I get the idea of isolation, but why would that even be a place he'd necessarily know to consider? It's not too much of a stretch for me, it's just a little...odd.
One thing to remember on that last point of yours though: the Ley Lines exist because of Demonreach, not the other way around. It's specifically stated that the Demonreach is the source of those Ley Lines due to the ridiculous density of Eldritch Abominations stored there.Awesome avatar by potatocubed.
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2012-12-01, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SpoilerRegarding Molly- I assumed myself that the mantle goes after whomever is most 'worthy'- and Molly was first selected due to her psychological and magical nature (Priven Guilty), then carefully trained by Lea to be a suitable lady (Ghost Story). While a Changeling is better than a mortal, a specially prepared mortal is better than some random changeling.
And of course, Mab was right there, and could have just directed it to Molly 'manually'.
Did Lilly actually become Fairy and if so, was this an inherent result of the mantle or because she 'chose?' I remember the Gatekeeper saying the mantle was passed to a 'mortal'.
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2012-12-01, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SpoilerThere's no actual requirement that one of the fae inherit the Queen's position. True, Sarissa was being groomed as Maeve's replacement, but before after she offs Lily Maeve mentions that now Mab can't kill her without it passing to a mortal, and Mab also admits to Harry that she was mortal at one point. The powers themselves don't really care where they end up, they just apparently warp to the nearest person capable of wielding them. They were on mortal ground, so they popped to the nearest acceptable free target, which happened to be Molly. (Admittedly, most likely through Mab's manipulation.) Had they been in Faerie, the powers most likely would have popped over to the nearest Fae capable of wielding them.
Alas, had they but gone to Murphy instead! Especially for the looks on everyone's faces!Basilisk 6Pilot of the Thing
I'm not evil. My morals just aren't the same as society's.
On a one man quest to beat the Star Wars Universe, using nothing but simple, plain, ordinary logic. Score so far: Me 593 SWU 450
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2012-12-01, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Last edited by Sinfonian; 2012-12-01 at 11:43 AM.
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2012-12-01, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SpoilerWell, the RPG says that by becoming the Summer Lady, Lily inherently chose Faerie, and Fix inherently chose Mortal by becoming the Summer Knight (because those roles are meant to be fulfilled by faeries and mortals respectively). And the RPG is meant to be sorta-canon.Last edited by Ecalsneerg; 2012-12-01 at 01:18 PM.
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2012-12-01, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Out of everything that happened in the book, the thing that has me most curious is
Spoilerthis stuff about Mac. What is he? The book strongly hints he might be an outsider, maybe there are good outsiders?
Also, as regards Faerie
Spoilerdoes this mean the summer and winter courts, or even all of faerie itself was created for the purpose of defending the Dresdenverse (is there an official name for this?)? Were all faeries originally mortal? How did this system come about anyways?
Finally, as regards Titania
Spoilershe goes on about how Mab is all rationality while she is all emotion, and then goes to prove Spock right by basically causing all the problems of this book because of the way she treats Lily. Mab may be a psychotic bitch, but at this point it seems that she has done more than anyone else to protect the Dresdenverse. Seriously, Titania is pretty stupid.
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2012-12-01, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Malsheem, Nessus
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SpoilerMost likely Faerie just "is" like any other part of the Nevernever, and they were given/took on the job of protecting against Outsiders because they're the group of immortals most concerned with and connected with the natural world, so (A) they have a vested interest in keeping the Outsiders out, as opposed to fallen angels that might hold a grudge against the world or Black Court vampires who have nothing to lose or similar, and (B) they're basically everywhere that nature is whereas the old gods, vampires, etc. seem more geographically restricted.
We haven't seen any other faction yet that exists for something--the White Court, for instance, are all about preying on mortals but they weren't (so far as we know) specifically created by the White God or anyone else to serve as a predator on humans--and we haven't seen evidence yet that any one creature or faction created everything with a Plan in mind, so I think it's leaping to conclusions to assume Faerie has a Purpose they were created to fulfill.
As for the whole mantles-of-power system, I always took that to essentially be the Faerie method of reproduction. Immortal beings who don't reproduce in the usual way but can be killed or otherwise removed need to have some way to keep their numbers up, so the passing of mantles from particularly powerful or significant individuals to keep their power and identities around is sort of like an adaptation that the magical natural selection of the Nevernever provided them. So there was likely an original set of Mab and the rest that didn't start off as mortals, but by now almost everyone (probably with the exception of the Mothers) has been killed and transferred at least once.
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2012-12-01, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SpoilerMaybe created isn't the right word, but the large number of responsibilities faerie seems to have (fighting outsiders, maintaining the balance of nature, overseeing diplomatic treaties) seems to me to suggest that this system didn't exactly evolve naturally. Also the fact that Mab (and by extension Titania who is supposed to be her sister) was originally mortal makes me think that the Faeries might not be a native born part of the Nevernever. I'm not saying that it was some sort of god that did it, but perhaps some ancient humans/faeries.Last edited by Drolyt; 2012-12-01 at 02:50 PM.
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2012-12-01, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SpoilerThe outsider-fighting system is probably artificial, since I can't see them allowing such a massive imbalance in Winter forces to come about naturally. The Mothers haven't given any indication of having been mortal before (yet) and the Unseelie Accords were a one-time thing--we don't have any indication that they oversaw any other treaties, and the Accords are only Unseelie because Mab instigated those talks--so I think for now assuming that the Faerie Courts arose naturally rather than being a mortal or ancient faerie creation is the safer alternative.
Of course, given the infodumps in Ghost Story and Cold Days, it's entirely possible that all of that will change in Mirror Mirror, so who knows?Last edited by PairO'Dice Lost; 2012-12-01 at 03:03 PM.
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2012-12-01, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- AKA 'Santiago'
Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
"Simon Ten Broek loves to draw attention;
Simon Ten Broek spent years in bleak detention;
Simon Ten Broek, with crimes too vile to mention;
Simon Ten Broek won't live to see his pension."
10:07 PM [Matthias] And the Kohr-Ah are all "GIT THEM DUKE BOYS!"
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2012-12-01, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SpoilerI vaguely remember some throwaway line about the Formor being the original powers of the Nevernever, but were driven out by Fairy...which, when you think about it, means that the fundamental structure of the universe used to be very different...
Also, if Murphy could be a Winter Queen, Mouse could easily take the role of Summer Knight.
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2012-12-01, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Spoiler
Good outsiders, no. A good outsider, singular, maybe. Like I theorized above, I think he used to be/is an Outsider who 'went native' and abandoned his own. He got his bar as Accorded Neutral Ground because no faction signed on to the Unseelie Accords wanted him to sign up with their enemies.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-12-01, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Yes or no question: worth asking family to get it as a gift in a few weeks?
Tarvek needs to die in a fire.
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2012-12-01, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-12-01, 11:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-12-02, 12:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
If I may, two things.
SpoilerFirst of all, I didn't like this book much. Probably my least favourite of the series. Some scenes were good, even if they never really seemed to get up to the speed of some of the others.
But the reveal about the purpose of faerie? Hell no. That ruined the book for me. I liked the faeries as forces of nature. Undirected, inscrutable, vast and powerful. Not as creation's watchdogs. I liked them destructive and immense and only not destroying the world because they held each other in check. And now they are protecting it? The damn fey have a damn purpose? That's just wrong.
Second, a theory on Molly. Or rather, Charity Carpenter. Charity is either a Sidhe, or, more likely, a Changeling. That is why Molly was a vessel of winter.
Charity already made a few cryptic remarks about having magic herself, and being scared of it. I think there is more than that. She even made Michael's armour out of Titanium, not steel.
Maeve did not say that if she was killed, her Mantle would go to a mortal. She said it would go to a changeling not aware of it's nature. Which i think it did.Resident Vancian Apologist
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2012-12-02, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SpoilerHonestly, I'm also disappointed by Faerie having a "purpose," but how I end up feeling about it will depend on how it's developed in the next few books. If the current situation came about because the current powers-that-be overthrew the Fomor way back when, took power, went "Holy crap, no wonder the Fomor forces were less numerous than we thought! This is bad! Uh, okay, you guys whip up a bunch more soldiers pronto, you guys keep an eye on them in case they get uppity, gogogo!" and ended up with the current situation, that's one thing; we already have some examples of organizations like the Wardens (if the Demonreach Wardens theory is correct), the Knights of the Cross, the Fellowship of St. Giles, the Venatori Umbrorum, and similar that are formed in secret to fight threats not many people (even in the supernatural world) know about, so having part of Winter be an anti-Outsider organization under Mab's control would make sense.
If, as some have suggested, it turns out that the entire purpose of all of Faerie was explicitly to be a counter to the Outsiders rather than being, y'know, everything we've been led thus far to believe they are, then I'll be pretty pissed.
Regarding Charity, yeah, the Charity-as-a-changeling theory is one I've had for a while as well, considering the parallels between Meryl's reluctance to give in to her Faerie side and Charity saying she had chosen not to use her magic and then it disappeared. I'm wondering if the theme of Mirror Mirror will be appearances (what Faerie is really up to, who Mac and Charity and maybe Mouse really are, etc.), as that seems like a logical direction to take from here.
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2012-12-02, 02:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SpoilerI think it is almost certainly something like what you've suggested. I doubt it is something silly like "God or some similar power created the system". It seems like I gave that impression with my post, but I highly doubt it and I think Butcher has a sweet backstory for us. That is more his style, slow revelation of a complex storyline.
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2012-12-02, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
First, a fan video that's a tribute to the series.
Second,
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2012-12-02, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Spoiler
Yeah, the whole "Winter gets to fight off Outsiders, while Summer is in charge of fighting off Winter" thing is stupid. It seems like it exists to make Winter (Harry's side) the more important one.
Personally, I think it could have worked well to have Summer and Winter be taking turns. It's already established that Summer and Winter take turns being dominant, switching at either the Equinox or the Solstice. I would have liked it better if they took turns fighting off outsiders/replenishing their forces.
Of course it's always possible that Summer is ALSO fighting off outsiders. Each side is intentionally kept in the dark about the other so as to avoid using it as leverage for any potentially balance-breaking trickery (for example, Winter pulls some troops off the frontlines, pretends they were killed, and has Summer pull troops from the heart of Farie to reinforce them, then uses the "Dead" troops to launch an attack).
That could actually make more sense. In Summer Night, the plan was to use the stone table to hand the power of the Summer Knight over to Winter, creating an imbalance. But if Aurora was infected by the Nemesis, she would be trying to help the outsiders.
Tipping the balance of power in favor of Winter would be bad for the world, but it would only help Winter fight off the Outsiders.
However, if there was another front, one that Winter didn't know about, but Summer did, (just as Summer was unaware of Winter's gates), then tipping the balance in favor of Winter could cripple summer's ability to protect it's gates.
If Aurora dosn't even know that Winter has gates to protect, then from her perspective it's the equivalent of stealing a tank from the army, and giving it to a street gang.