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2012-02-26, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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[Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
Fourthland
A Game of Abstraction
Fourthland is the game that I've now been working on for some months, and it is bearing more fruit than any of my previous attempts. It has gone much further than I thought it would, and I hope to see it become a full-fledged Tabletop RPG, one you can buy and hold a copy of in your hand. We're still a ways from that goal, but it is in sight.
What IS Fourthland, you ask? It is a game of abstraction. Imagine a world where everything you knew was wrong. Where the fundamental aspects of reality were different. A world of creativity, ingenuity, and alien-ness. In this strange, bizarre world your preconceptions of reality will likely not suffice. You will need to learn. To think in new, and novel ways. This is NOT a game for the unimaginative. It is a game of glorious innovation, a game of teamwork, of ideals, of thoughts and beliefs.
Due to me wanting to actually produce this game, I am limited in what I can say about it. I have said a few things openly, so I'll post them here for anyone taking a look for the first time:
1. The world is centered around 12 "Energies" that define most of reality. Character stats are the first 8.
2. There are things kind of like classes, called "Shapes". There are three tiers of these, and they are independent of one another. "Combinatory Characters" is one of the features my game espouses. Any combination of Shapes should be a viable character.
3. Play starts with all players having blank character sheets. As they play through the beginning of the game, they gain the defining features of their character. This is what I call "Progressive Start". Players don't need to do any preparation before the game. No hours of character-building. Just straight on to the fun!
4. The rules are divided into discrete "Stages", increasing in complexity in each stage. This allows new groups to not be immediately overwhelmed by how profoundly weird Fourthland is. Once a group has progressed through all the stages, later games can start at the last stage (Utilizing the entire body of rules). The first stage involves solely the first four energies, as well as a bit of interesting lore about the world.
5. "Shape does not confer function". Functions are attributes attached to the being of an object, not its physical shape. This means that you could make something that looks like a sword, but unless it has the intrinsic property of a sword, it does not function as one.
6. Tick, Tick, Tick, Tick, Tock, Tock, Tock, Tock, Click, Click, Click, Click, Clack, Clack, Clack, Clack, Arc, Arc, Arc, Arc, Circle, Circle, Circle, Circle, Cycle, Cycle, Cycle, Cycle, Grand Cycle, Grand Cycle, Grand Cycle, Grand Cycle, Father, Father, Father, Father, Mother, Mother, Mother, Mother.... Tick
7. There seems to be some recurring theme about the numbers 2, 4, 6, and 8?
8. For example, I needed 8 facts about the game.
I frequently post my musings and progress in this thread, so if you're interested, do follow! Don't be afraid to post either! Responses on this thread help ensure that others hear of it. Plus the people that hang out here are generally pretty awesome.
Quotes of Importance/Humor:
Because they deserve to be out of the spoiler:
"Welknair's Thread: Side effects may include: Immediate loss of SAN, questions regarding our fundamental assumptions of the world around us, perpetual motion, blackholes, paradoxes, ponies, food-ified objects, piercing boulders, bludgeoning spears, and time clones. Consult your doctor if you feel that any of these may be a problem, or if any portion of your body has been chronofragged."SpoilerA bit of background for the next one: I have a very crazy player. He tends to abuse physics. The playtest group from this thread has issued him an official challenge, starting with the following post.
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Original OP:
For those curious, I am still alive and well, and I'm still working diligently. I have recently had a wonderful slew of ideas for a game called "Fourth Land" which incorporates the main ideas I've been striving to work into my previous WIP-games. Out of all the ideas I've had, this seems like it is by far the best, most unique, and most likely to fulfill the criteria I wish to fulfill.
Bonds that hold, bonds that break, bonds that only few do make.
Bonds that kill, bonds that save, bonds that cause some to be brave.
I am hesitant to disclose too much as I hope to one day publish this game, and the way things are going, this may be a possibility. Suffice it to say, the game does something I talked about sometime ago - It embraces the abstraction inherent in games. It drops the pretense of trying to simulate reality, because that's not what I want to do. By escaping from the framework of the real world, I can avoid such unpleasant things as grappling rules. As a result, I am free to make an entirely new universe with its own laws of physics . And that is exactly what I have done. I've spoken with my friends and players and they loved the bits that I told them.
In the twists of time, follow your friends. Form a Bond, or you shall meet your ends.
So from time to time I may make a post in this thread, just making sure that everyone knows that I'm still alive and still designing. Just on my own terms now.
Some will live, some may die, but never will you say goodbye.
And of course, anyone and everyone is free to use the homebrew that I have created. That's what it's there for.
One cannot fall without a second, and a second without a third.
Edit: And if I decide that it'd be okay, I may disclose some more details about the game. But, as I said before, I hope to publish it. Copyright law doesn't like posting ideas online before copyrighting them.
Only together may death be deferred.
Edit2: I will also endeavor to check this thread at least once a week, in case anyone wants to get a hold of me or talk to me for any reason.Last edited by Welknair; 2012-06-11 at 11:03 PM.
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2012-03-19, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
That's right, this is still a thing. A thing I've been devoting a deal of time to and is coming along nicely. I believe I've determined the basics of character structure and creation as well as the basics of how my wacked out world works. Basics of stats, rolling, and combat done as well. I even found a way to solve both my resurrection and reproduction problems at the same time! It's shaping up quite nicely, if I do say so myself.
I realize that this isn't the type of thing that usually goes here. There's no material for people to look at, enjoy, and critique. Still, I feel obligated to share with everyone what I'm currently working on and let you know that I have something big in the works.
'Till later.
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2012-03-23, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-03-23, 10:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
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2012-03-27, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-03-27, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
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2012-03-29, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
I'd like to make sure that everyone knows that all information, ideas, and statistics that are now or will ever be posted in this thread by me are my intellectual property which I wish to eventually publish. My copyright savvy friend has said that saying that, I can give a snippet or two of my worldbuilding.
The end of the creation story/intro:
//October 17, 2242 AD, 8:25pm
//I feel it correct that now, after all this time, that I look and comment.
//I never believed our little basement project would become this.
//0 was more like me than I had ever thought possible.
//The world he created is the world I wished created.
//It is what we set out to make.
//A world of heroism, adventure, idealism, creativity and intelligence.
//My world.
//Our world.
//Their time is different than ours. I now have a glimmer of understanding into what 0 said.
//I, with my new viewing engine, can view the entire history of this world.
//All of it.
//And it has no end.
//The computations for the furthest reach of their timeline stretches beyond what could have been achieved in the time since its beginning.
//I have no idea how this is possible.
//Perhaps the world is itself no longer just a simulation.
//Perhaps it is a true universe unto itself.
//I am but a passive viewer, watching the eternities scroll past.
//I haven't even seen the first turning of the True Cycle.
//I wish to, before I die.
//0 now orbits this world like a great sun, giving life to all.
//He seems to have accumulated Fourth during his life, much more than the little bit we first gave him.
//I still don't understand that stuff.
//I doubt I ever will.
//So for now, I will wait.
//And watch.
-End Log-
That whole thing is something like 8 pages long, and explains quite a deal. I'm now feeling more confident about my stastical framework, and I'm moving on to actual character design. Feeling good about this world/game of mine.
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2012-04-14, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
That.. Wow. I. Huh.
I've been doing a lot of work on my game recently. A lot. I've been telling my normal group bits and pieces between our GURPS games. I've told them about the story, about the world. I finally have enough done to do a trial run. Just to test out basic mechanics, you know. To make sure I hadn't made some major mistake, had some fatal oversight.
I did.
My world, my game, that I had prided myself on being "Simple" was too complicated for them. These are the people that make skyship designs with my magitech system. They didn't understand the ideas I was throwing at them.
My oversight? My design goal was to make a game unlike any other, to make something entirely unique. My short-coming? I succeeded. I hadn't even thought of the POSSIBILITY that the drastic alien-ness of my game would confuse my players to the point where they couldn't comprehend it.
My players are pretty smart, smarter than the average one, I'd like to say. The fact that my game is incomprehensible to them does not bode well.
I need to change some things. A lot of things. This was a bit of a reality check for me. I haven't been doing near as well as I thought I had. I made something TOO different, TOO novel. And they just didn't get it.
Wow. That's the first time I've ever walked out on a game.
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2012-04-14, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-04-14, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
I really want more info, just to see if I can understand the game.
Also, I call time.Last edited by jojolagger; 2012-05-02 at 10:16 AM.
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2012-04-14, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
... I complain about a bad test, and people's response is to be intensely curious?
Now that I've calmed down a bit, I think I overreacted. I did a second test and things went a bit better. It's important to ease players into it instead of expecting to understand an entirely new universe immediately.
Well, I'll see what I can say without giving too much away or angering the gods of copyright (I wonder if I can just copyright the idea already so I can be more open? I need to work that stuff out).
I made an entirely new universe, if you hadn't already figured that bit out. What's a "Human"? What's a "Molecule"? Gravity? Sound? Life? Death? Time?
I made my own. I rewrote EVERYTHING. I have 12 elementary energy types that define the world, inspired a little by Exalted Elemental Essence - That's actually a good story, and one I can say to help you understand without telling exactly how my stuff works.
We were arguing about a character from Keychain of Creation (The Exalted version of OotS), an Abyssal girl by the name of Secret. Abyssals don't age physically. I argued that this made no sense, since they healed over time. Healing involves the replication of cells, shortening telomeres. It is this shortening of telomeres that causes aging. I was met by something along the lines of "What is a Cell?" I was baffled. The utter refutation of everything I knew about the world... They instead explained to me that everyone was made of a combination of Wood and Earth Essence, the first giving life and the second structure. You die when your Wood runs out. This was the basics of the Energy system for Fourthland. I number my twelve energies, 1st through 12th. Guess which one causes life? Fourth. Then I have ones that cause Gravity, Light, Heat, Movement, and so on.
Player Stats? Energy scores. This is the center of my game. It is alien and weird. Yet at the same time, to me at least, it is quite beautiful. To be able to build an entire universe from so few elements is amazing. It has a complex simplicity about it, and a simple complexity.
Another interesting thing about my game: "Progressive Start". You hand blank character sheets to players, and the game has started. Right then and there. The DM/GM/Muse describes the scene, and then Players get their first bit of Fourth (XP). They continue to as the game goes on, though the rate slows down. Later, they get most of it from overcoming challenges. The point though, is that you don't wait an hour and a half to make character sheets first. It's done through the gameplay.
Yet another: Combinatory Characters. I'm making a bunch of class-y things that I don't think I can talk too much about, but you get three of them. Any combination should be valid. In this way, I can create massive numbers of potential characters off of relatively few templates. And it's an exponential growth.
Does that do it for you? My copyright-friend says he'll help me through the process this coming weekend and I should be able to say a lot more.
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2012-04-14, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
That.
Sounds.
BRILLIANT.
HAVE MY MONEY. TAKE IT, TAKE IT ALL.
This is possibly the most interesting idea for a game ever. Even if it were to be abandoned, you should be enshrined for coming up with such an idea. I should probably go lay down before I start babbling even more.
tl;dr: Sounds cool.Homebrew:
Misc:
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2012-04-14, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
And you waited how long to tell us about it? I half wish you HADN'T told me because then I wouldn't be annoyed I can't play it right now...
+1 to Sounds Cool. Adding totally AWESOME to the statement.
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2012-04-14, 11:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
OK, then.
Internet, don't fail me now.
/Tab, /search: "most epic word ever" /enter.
Internet, you failed me.
OK, then. I will understate, since I cannot understate.
That's a really unusual idea, a very basic one... sort of like the original ideas of Aristotle's, which led to European Alchemy (wind/water/earth/fire).
One thing I'll say: PROGRESSIVE START. I am totally doing this in every game ever, from now on... how to make it work in Pathfinder, though...
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2012-04-15, 01:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
I have quite a lot yet to do, I'm nowhere near done. But it IS very heartening that there are people out there that like this stuff. At the end of the first test, I was kind of thinking it was just me that would enjoy this stuff.
Progressive Start is a very interesting idea, and takes some peculiar staging. Because of the life/death/growth cycle in my game, it fits in rather cleanly. It is possible, though difficult, to integrate in d20 and other standard TT RPG games. Though I was considering trying to draw up a basic mechanic.. Not quite sure how it'd work out.
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2012-04-15, 01:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
If you *can* draw it up, I'd love that...
Maybe it'd help with giving us stuff that can't touch your copyright?
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2012-04-15, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
This sounds amazing in more ways than I care to count. Can't wait to see this in action. Count me in for any and all playtests.
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2012-04-15, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
I've been thinking about it all day, and may take a crack at it (yay for first homebrew!), at least for Pathfinder, and link it here.
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2012-04-15, 10:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
Feel free! I did a bit of pondering myself, and decided that it wouldn't quite work out how it did for Fourthland. Given the way Fourthland characters grow, it's worked cleanly into everything.
For d20 games, I think it'd be something more along the lines of "You're character is already fully developed, you just need to figure out who he is", where during the first session your actions determine where things get put. You'd of course need some better system than random allocation of character features.. This is where the mechanic would come in. I'm honestly interested to see what you'll come up with.
Edit: I showed my copy-right friend the recent posts on this thread, and he's as enthusiastic as ever for me to get rolling. And now my test-players are interested in playing this regularly while we wait for everyone else to show up.. With any luck I can start cranking out materials, now that I'm a little more confident in my foundation.
Random teaser-idea: When I get the base version of the rules done and typed up, I miiiight be willing to send the beta version to some people here on the forums to participate in a PbP using a chat service of some sort, possibly Steam or an IRC channel. This of course would be after my players have deemed the Alpha-Version not atrocious. It'll more than likely be a while.
And another random tidbit: It's a d4 game. To play, each player needs a single d4. Or I suppose you could just pass one around. Or flip two coins, in a pinch.Last edited by Welknair; 2012-04-15 at 11:49 PM.
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2012-04-16, 12:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
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2012-04-16, 12:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
A bit of emphasis added.
But yeah, if and when the above occurs, you can probably count yourself in. The reason I want to use a chat thing like those instead of standard PbP on the forums is 1) Still dealing with copyright and 2) Things at the start obviously move pretty quick, and the forums would slow that down considerably.
Though we WOULD need to work out time zone stuff... Eh, the worst that could happen is people staying up till 2 in the morning trying to understand an entirely new universe. I don't know about you guys, but I do that anyways
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2012-04-16, 12:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
I know, I know. Nevertheless, I'll be PMing it to you now, because I have finished my super-speedy attempt at Progressive Start.
Progressive Start. It needs some work, methinks.
In other news, I usually work at laaaaaaaaate night anyway. Games with my player start at 10:00 my time.
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2012-04-16, 01:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
Already posted on it.
Sounds like a good time, right? Late night gaming is a lot of fun, bet it gets.. Weird. Especially when you start questioning the fundaments of the universe. "Why do swords do more damage than pillows? Huh? Who decided that? Or SPOONS. What about SPOOONS. We should change them to 2d12. That sounds like a GREAT IDEA." (Thank Boccob this isn't based on a true story)Last edited by Welknair; 2012-04-16 at 04:40 AM.
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2012-04-16, 01:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
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2012-04-16, 02:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
THAT was quite the conversation. Exceedingly enjoyable.
Status of my hope in mankind: Notably raised, for the moment.
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2012-04-16, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
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2012-04-17, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
I should be doing the basic version of the copyrighting this weekend. And it's official: My group will be playing Fourthland a little each week, before our main GURPS game. And I'm quickly filling out content. I'm.. I'm really liking it. Things are going well. Soon I should be able to type up an Alpha version, with the basic materials.
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2012-04-17, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
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2012-04-17, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land
Every other tuesday afternoon? That sounds quite specific.
As far as roleplaying goes, the first game didn't get around to a whole lot. I kind of spazzed in the middle, given the relative failure of the first test. Mostly they've begun to explore their world, which should be quite the interesting journey. You guys remember the friend of mine that gave me the idea for Magitech? Well he's in this game. I'm kind of afraid of what he'll do when he starts understanding things.
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2012-04-17, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Welknair Update/Game Idea] Fourth Land