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2012-09-27, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
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2012-09-27, 07:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2011
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- Somewhere south of Hell
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Ah, you misunderstand. I personally do not think it is a victimless crime, I just think, from experience, very few people are ]aware they are beraking the rules, and when told such they cannot rationalise it in light of what the rest of the rules are (which read "if we suspect you of being a dingus we will crack down hard").
Also, wow. I just got Qaera's old username, given the information that they posted predominantly in pictures for a whiel.
Jokingly, your life is everything thus far I would like mine to be. Pole dancing, parkour, being able to dress up pretty, etc.
I thought I expolained that, but as I was osting due to insomnia... Well, there have ben some egregious typos on my part, including forgetting entire sentences. Sorry to worry you, friend
I would say your odds of getting "caught" would be pretty low.... Going from your pictures, I wouldn't be surprised to find out you had a twin sister. Inertia is on your side. If you show up en femme, then tha's the first impression you'll give and that is what folks will cleave to.
We call that life, and it's not really science yet, because we lack the ability to analyze the data, or even access it.
I am fully convinced Life: the board game was an early attempt at distilling the formula to a workable method.
mm. I may be misunderstanding you, but isn't that like saying your bones are innate because your body grows them - and then ignoring that your environment plays a huge part in how they form?
The question isn't about whether your sexualkity is part of you, it is about whether it would be the same in a vacuum as it is hen amongst people, in society.
I lean towards more innate, mesel'. But I can't really be sure, as I knew more about the details of the acts at age 2, than most of my fellws did by the time high school sexual education rolled around. It's entirely posible I picked it up through osmosis.
suspicion that emphasizing the possibility of them receiving a placebo would increase their paranoia that they were one of the ones getting a placebo and muck with the results, though, I must admit, I'm not very familiar with what information is released to people as they're entering into such studies.
And before anyone asks, most people will perk up when they know th ecoffee is being brewed, before ingestion. That's why I say that.
I don't know. I think aneutral environment is actually the least likely to foster nurture-based changes. Consider that a religious community that puts a lot of emphasis on homosexuality is still putting a lot of emphasis on homosexuality, even if it is negative.
The only parallels I have are racist, but; As a kid, when I met my first black person, I was curious. I wondered why their skin was darker, why his palms were still light, and that was it. Took me another ten years to figure out the differences were more than utterly superficial (genetic, different effects from some medication, different hair- and skin-care procedures). On the other end, I had friends who had racist parents, and they were really really aware that "black people are different". That stands to reason, right?
Except I also had friends who had parents that were all about breaking down inequality and such, and those friends were still aware that "black people were different". They just weren't allowed to bring up or act on those differences.
Anecdotally, being informed that there is such a thing as Gay, and that you should have an opinion on it, whathver that opinion is "suppposed" to be, will focus on that Gay ness.
That is true, and I didn't mean to say the connotations weren't there. I meant they aren't as strong as they could be, and that ... Actually, i can't remember the rest of my point. Ah well.
Tea?
Going mad, people. The most annoying part is, I can't go to my therapist unless I register at college, and I can't register unless I get funding, so I can't see my therapist during this stressful period waiting for funding.
[quote+"Nope"]What does it say about me that I read the "****" as "butt"?
[/quote]
Too much or not enough Adventure Time
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2012-09-27, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Seems like my conditioning to swear less is working.
Oh?
Meh, I never got into the series. I hold a grudge against it, actually, because its release was what told me I have an inner hipster. (I watched the pilot ages ago when it came out, and was being all hipstery about it.)Jude P.
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2012-09-27, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Well now I have to wonder which is which at which part of the discussion.
Spoiler
It's more like innate might not have been the best word to choose in particular, but your bones can only grow in so many ways and if someone tries to break them there's only so many ways that a given bone will reform to the stimulus. Even with the leading explanation for sexuality actually changing, which, as far as I can recall, is still a bit of a gray area due to the usual ages of the children involved, is such that it's more whether the person who experiences that kind of traumatic event has the potential for being affected in that way.
Also it's a bad example because the bones will form as they form so long as there's nothing catastrophically wrong happening. Or maybe it's still good because I only recall equally traumatic things as giving rise to what we think are changes in sexuality as opposed to just ceasing to live life in denial and/or the closet.
Sexuality arises from the self in my view, and while people can try to break you in many, many ways, what allows one's sexuality to be broken is, again, something intrinsic to the person being broken or else the techniques would roughly work on all of us.
Hmm, I'd forgotten about that. Only increases my unease with the idea of making a big deal out of it then.
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2012-09-27, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- Ashes...
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Thanks to you all! No offense meant to those I don't get in touch with; I only need one or two opinions. But you're all so very wonderful!
Thank you. This *almost* brought a tear to my eye. I don't really hear this kind of thing enough. Aside from you guys, who have other things to worry about, all I've got is two friends I get texts from once or twice a month. I've been having trouble claiming that title for my own, no matter how right it fels, or how much I want it. So, thank you. A whole lot.
EDIT: Oh, and that means I'm probably between a 5.5 to a 6. Yay!Last edited by Absol197; 2012-09-28 at 05:41 AM.
"It is important to draw wisdom from many different places. If you take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale." --Iroh
LGBTAitP! If you want to talk, learn, or have some fun, stop by!
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2012-09-27, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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- Malsheem, Nessus
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
If one is unsure about sexuality (or opinions on race, in your racism example), then yes, a society drawing attention to it when one didn't consider it as an option before might have an effect; as supernerd said above and some others have said in previous iterations of the thread, they didn't realize it was an option and when it was brought up at all, even in a negative light, they gravitated in that direction. There will always be some people who are subconsciously influenced to do or be something because it's forbidden or edgy or whatever, and I could see some people being nurtured in a gay direction as a form of rebellion.
However, if one is aware of one's sexuality beforehand, that doesn't really hold. I knew I was gay for at least 3 years before it was brought up in church or school, and a friend of mine in a similar situation figured out she was a lesbian a few months before it was brought up. In that sort of situation, all of the anti-gay rhetoric might convince one to try to act and/or become straight (as happened with my friend) or to research the issue and make sure one is actually gay in the face of all the crap one is going to get for it in future (as happened with me), but the most I could see that doing in terms of actually directly affecting sexuality in some way would be causing someone who's really bisexual to identify as purely gay in reaction ("You can't make me straight, I'm gonna ignore [opposite sex], so there!").
Also, if nurture really had that kind of effect, going through your formative years with people telling you gays are going to Hell, it's unnatural, etc. would be much more likely to cause you to turn out straight than one that says it's okay to be gay or that ignores the whole issue entirely. It's the old "Given how crappy gay people have it in many areas, why would anyone there choose to be gay?" argument: if you eat an apple every day after school and suddenly discover that it's an option to eat a candy bar instead, but people who eat a candy bar after school are shunned and hated and evil, then no matter how much your nature tells you that candy bars or delicious you're probably going to try pretty damn hard to convince yourself the apple is just dandy and you might eventually convince yourself that you truly do like the apple better...but you're going to have vastly fewer people go with the candy bar in that scenario than you would in a scenario where kids are asked "So, would you like an apple or candy bar?" or just "Whaddya want?" instead
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2012-09-27, 09:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
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Thanks to all my avatar artists, especially to Paisley for my avatar of Vivian, cowardly cryophoenix.
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2012-09-27, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
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2012-09-28, 12:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
You could always try to start a deep meaningful conversation...
On the subject of the romance etc. I found a new 'zone': businesspartnerzoned. Apparently my crush doesn't want me for mygodlikeactually not so great body, but for my experience in starting up a business. The plan never took off since she couldnt come to sailing and cooking becuase she had a last minute nickelback concert (yeah she actually likes them, the one imperfection ), so I got stuck at the Wile E Coyote stage of the plan, and never got to the vetinary stage...
Ah well, apparently my brains are sexy (did I ever tell you about the robustness of my ego, it bounces back most beautifully)Warlock Poetry?
Or ways to use me in game?
Better grab a drink...
Currently ruining Strahd's day - Avatar by the Outstanding Smuchsmuch
First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-09-28, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Since I missed the discussion on placebo and blinding:
Spoiler*Puts on professor hat* Ahem. Let me introduce you to the wonderful concept of phenotypic plasticity. Basically everything we are is, in some sense, genetic. We aren't evolved to be netizens, for instance, but our pre-civilization ideas about fairness, reciprocity, and punishment dictate how we respond to trolling. The degree to which environment can change how our genes express a trait (called a phenotype) is called plasticity.
The classic example is English ivy. In the shade its leaves look like this:
while in sunlight they look like this(the shape, not the disease):
This is because the lobes allow the leaves to tessellate and collect all available light in the understory, while the rounder leaves are more efficient for collecting light in the canopy. Ivy has to have genetic programming for both shapes (and intermediates) because it's a climbing plant and has leaves in both the canopy and the understory.
The human brain is a classically plastic organism. That's why, whenever I hear of a new study finding differences between men's brains and women's brains (or between straight and gay brains, or any of the other mostly trivial differences neuroscientists like to look at), I don't go OMG teh wimminz r different from us menz and tear up my feminist membership card. It's at least as likely that twenty-plus years of growing up female has changed the brain. In fact, the very fact that you're capable of learning demonstrates its plasticity.
So, what does that mean for sexuality (and gender identity)? I dunno. From what I understand from twin studies, it's unlikely that sexuality is dictated entirely by genes. It could be that everyone has the same chance of turning out either gay or straight or bi (there just isn't enough research on asexuality to say anything at all, yet), and that environment dictates the outcome. Also because of twin studies, I think that's unlikely as well. The reality is probably intermediate. Everyone has a genetic bias toward some portion of the spectrum, and then environment shapes it further. A hundred years ago, the shame of sporadic same-sex crushes I've had may have either magnified them so I'd end up more bisexual, or may have squelched them before I was cognizant of them.
Also, there's no such thing as a trait "in a vacuum." There's always an environment that shapes phenotype, even if that environment is "a vacuuum." Though typically that pheotype is "dead." Even a metaphorical vacuum is an environment: the closest two I can think of are neglect (for children) and sensory deprivation. In both cases, the phenotype that results is usually severe mental illness.
(A key note: just because a trait is plastic doesn't mean that it's changeable once it arises. Particularly for psychological traits, there's often a key period for plasticity and after a certain point, it's set in stone. Language is a good example: if a normal person doesn't have the opportunity to learn to speak by age 5 or so, you probably will remain nonverbal for the rest of their life, and your ability to learn new a new language without a significant accent basically disappears by the time you're 16. Likewise, asthma can be caused by a relatively germ-free upbringing, but by the time you reach adulthood, no amount of sterilization can cause it and no amount of grunginess can cause it. So wingnut pray-the-gay away types are still wrong and the APA is still right.)Author of The Auspician's Handbook and The Tempestarian's Handbook for Spheres of Power.Greenman by Bradakhan/Spring Greenman by Comissar/Autumn Greenman by Sgt. Pepper/Winter Greenman by gurgleflep
Ask me (or the other authors) anything.
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2012-09-28, 12:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- Under a 1st Ed AD&D DMG
Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
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2012-09-28, 01:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Bottom of a well
Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
So, I've started in on writing a new story. Science fiction. The owner of the starship is in an interspecies homosexual relationship. Though given that her wife isn't even humanoid, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that gender is fairly irrelevant in context by any reasonable standard.
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2012-09-28, 02:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Spoilered for potential TMI:
SpoilerTucking plus morning wood is NOT a comfortable combination
owQuotebox
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Wish building characters for D&D 3.5 was simpler? Try HeroForge Anew! An Excel-based, highly automated character builder. v7.4 now out!
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2012-09-28, 03:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Oh Helio, if it makes you feel better you did manage to bring a shard of joy to my blackened, misanthropic heart.
Hope you're feeling better nowPrincess in the streets.
Princess in the sheets.
Don't touch me I'm royalty.
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2012-09-28, 03:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Avatar by Rain Dragon
Wish building characters for D&D 3.5 was simpler? Try HeroForge Anew! An Excel-based, highly automated character builder. v7.4 now out!
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2012-09-28, 04:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
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2012-09-28, 04:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Warlock Poetry?
Or ways to use me in game?
Better grab a drink...
Currently ruining Strahd's day - Avatar by the Outstanding Smuchsmuch
First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-09-28, 04:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Makes me wish I could have a meaningful conversation...
I don't think you are the only one golentan. Myself being among the gathered throngs.
You did indeed. And I must say, I sympathise, and hope your situation has improved.
Good luck with the clubs, let us know how things turned out.
Co-Founder of LUTAS.
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A novella about a wizard and a rock star, cross-dimensional travel, and healing wounds neither knew were there.
Spoiler: Online stuffsLentrax has a Deviantart now, check it out!
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2012-09-28, 04:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-28, 04:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Quotebox
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Wish building characters for D&D 3.5 was simpler? Try HeroForge Anew! An Excel-based, highly automated character builder. v7.4 now out!
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2012-09-28, 06:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Anxiety and stress can make everything else worse. It's a good thing to be working on!
Love some, thanks!
No, because it's not that the college or my insurance is paying for it, I'm going (or rather, not going) to the student counselling service in the college, which is only accessible to students, and free of charge.
Cheerfairy, Kenderwoman and Geologist by Succubus, Feminist Geomancer by Astrella, Kender Wizard by me
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2012-09-28, 06:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Mm. I have made assumptions again.
A bone is a bone is a bone. A sexuality is a sexuality is a sexuality.
But the bones can be thicker, thinner, healthier, weaker, and vary in composition based on diet and exercise, as well as health. Diet, environment and to a degree health are all relatively external stimuli which alter the growth of the bone.
I am not arguing that sexuality isn't a part of who you are. I am saying that it's entirely possible for external values to sway you. Your environment can bombard you with enough information that it changes how you see yourself. This change is internal, ecause it's how you see yourself; it is still caused by the environment. You can debate whether or not you were changed, or allowed yourself to be changed, but that is a different conversation.
Hmm, I'd forgotten about that. Only increases my unease with the idea of making a big deal out of it then.
PLACEBOS, and that you might be taking PLACEBOS and should have conversations about PLACEBOS with your doctor. PLACEBOS. They don't make a big deal of it, because teu don't have to. There's no reason for patients to be suspicious, especially if they volunteered for the trial (which is the standard, as I understand it). The kind of people who would worry about whether they are getting a placebo or not is not the type who would be willing to go through a test anyway. Isn't that job like, discussing side effects an stuff too? The list of side effects from medicines nowadays is worse than the ailment usually.
That's a pretty good point, and not one I can argue.
Hm. I've thought about that before. I always figured that it would either freak people out really bad at the species level, or not bother them at all. I can get into the xenophobic mindset, of a culture so alien even the base assumptions o their biology, personality, social understanding, everything is so different you couldn't know what traps lie in wait... But then I figured, I don't really feel human most of the time anyway, and if she eats my head afterwards, it was a good run up until then. I'll reincarnate eventually, and be no worse for the wear than maybe a little gun-shy and afraid of mantids.
How different is the physiology? On a gross level as well - or would that be superficial level? I mean, Asari are superficially pretty close to humans, up to and including mammary and uterine structure, but totally different physiology. Also, how important is the different mechanics?
... Bah. Now I need to go find some trashy alien romance stories.
I'm with you, on words one, five six and eight. Unfortunately.
I thought about that, but actually discounted it for the very reason you spoilered. The mechanics are untenable. Well, without tape or something.
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2012-09-28, 06:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
And everybody with a penis just winced in unison. Ow.
SpoilerUnfortunately, conduciveness has little to do with it. To make an analogy that I acknowledge is imperfect and hope isn't offensive, I have pretty severe social phobia, and am uncomfortable hugging people I don't know well. I also have an extremely physically affectionate family, so reunions are frequently uncomfortable for me. That doesn't mean I had social anxiety from birth; in fact, my anxiety probably stems from that affection.
That doesn't mean that sexuality isn't determined prior to birth, but you can't conclude that it is based on homophobes' children turning out gay.Author of The Auspician's Handbook and The Tempestarian's Handbook for Spheres of Power.Greenman by Bradakhan/Spring Greenman by Comissar/Autumn Greenman by Sgt. Pepper/Winter Greenman by gurgleflep
Ask me (or the other authors) anything.
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2012-09-28, 06:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
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Avatar by Rain Dragon
Wish building characters for D&D 3.5 was simpler? Try HeroForge Anew! An Excel-based, highly automated character builder. v7.4 now out!
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2012-09-28, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Oddly I didn't wince, I was too busy trying to remember whether I've ever had "morning wood". I don't remember ever experiencing it.
On sexuality: I recently read that they're thinking it's largely determined by the hormone levels going about when you're a fetus. So by the time you're weaned, it's fairly unlikely that it will change significantly, although your perceptions of it might change over time. Either way, does it matter where it comes from?Jude P.
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2012-09-28, 06:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
To many people, unfortunately, the answer is, "Yes."
Let's see if I can explain this in a suitably a-religious manner...The people to whom it matters dislike those with atypical sexualities, and they want a reason to persecute them. It is a lot easier to persecute someone for making an immoral/disgusting/wrong choice than it is to persecute someone for something they have no control over. Thus, the seek out explainations (or sometimes, they don't seek, and just stand still shouting it as loudly as they can) that support sexuality being a choice, so that they can continue to call it "wrong."
If it's not a choice, then those people are forced to think about why such people exist in the first place, and whether it's truly immoral, and thus okay to persecute. That's how I see the whole discussion.
EDIT: Disclaimers!
SpoilerIt is important to note, of course, that not all of the people who feel that whether sexuality is a choice or not feel that way because of strong religious convictions. It's just that, in America at least, that seems to be where the most powerful and vocal of those who think that way approach the issue.
It's also not to say that all of those with religious convictions find it abhorrent; I would call myself very religious (or spiritual perhaps, because I don't follow an organized faith, but a personal mish-mash of the ideas I've found to have the strongest ring of truth; but that, I suppose is for another time and place), and obviously I have no issues with the idea .Last edited by Absol197; 2012-09-28 at 06:58 AM.
"It is important to draw wisdom from many different places. If you take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale." --Iroh
LGBTAitP! If you want to talk, learn, or have some fun, stop by!
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2012-09-28, 07:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
What Absol said. I'll add that it shouldn't matter, though. Gay sex is no better or worse than straight sex and gay relationships are no better than straight relationships. It's only because of homophobes that it matters, in much the same way that homosexuality is a risk factor for suicide only because of homophobes.
More science stuff:SpoilerSexuality probably isn't set by birth. There's a concordance of 50% in twin studies, meaning that 50% of gay men with identical twins have a gay twin. This is much higher than chance or fraternal twins, but it's less than the 100% you'd expect if genes + womb environment determined sexuality. There's something else going on, and it could be genetic (there are some ways identical twins aren't perfectly identical genetically), it could be that the womb environment isn't exactly the same for both twins somehow, or it could be that something in a child's environment after birth but before puberty affects sexuality as well. Don't ask me what, though.Author of The Auspician's Handbook and The Tempestarian's Handbook for Spheres of Power.Greenman by Bradakhan/Spring Greenman by Comissar/Autumn Greenman by Sgt. Pepper/Winter Greenman by gurgleflep
Ask me (or the other authors) anything.
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2012-09-28, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
I did say by the time the infant weans, because the mother's hormones still affect the infants until then. Do these studies on identical twins take into account whether they're breastfed or whether they receive other food? That might be interesting to look into.
Going by the studies with identical twins, environment must factor in somehow, but when? Many children's sexualities are fairly clear at around six or eight.Jude P.
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2012-09-28, 07:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
It matters if you think it's bad. There's a meta-ethical principle called "Ought implies can". Morality presupposes a choice - if I can't do anything about it either way it's not moral or amoral behavior. If I stumble and fall and drag someone with me, and that person is harmed, I'm not morally responsible, because I could not do anything about it (it's still nice to apologize, of course).
So, if homosexuality is not a choice then there cannot be anything morally reprehensible about being a homosexual. This irks some people who feel very strongly that there should be something wrong with it. However, accepting and living your homosexuality is still a choice, so they can always get their knickers in a twist about people who dare to accept themselves. Idiots.Avatar by CoffeeIncluded
Oooh, and that's a bad miss.
“Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
― Tim Fargo
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2012-09-28, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
In general, the studies look at twins separated at birth (something that has mercifully mostly stopped now), so none of them were breast fed.
Early childhood experiences can strongly affect sexuality in general. There is, for example, the famous Westermarck effect, which causes children to assume any other child they grew up with to be a sibling, and so not sexually attractive. This came to be a problem in the Kibbutzim of Israel, where children were raised communally, and so none were attracted enough to each other to marry! On the other hand, we tend to desire people who look similar but not identical to the primary caregiving adults in our young years, which is why many straight men/gay women end up with women who look vaguely like their mothers and gay men/straight women often end up with men that look like their fathers.Author of The Auspician's Handbook and The Tempestarian's Handbook for Spheres of Power.Greenman by Bradakhan/Spring Greenman by Comissar/Autumn Greenman by Sgt. Pepper/Winter Greenman by gurgleflep
Ask me (or the other authors) anything.