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2012-11-03, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XXXIX. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".
Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:
Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.
32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.
Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em. This comes up often enough to bear mention in the rules: Dragon Compendium is allowed.
Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT on Saturday, November 17th, 2012 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Amphetryon. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59PM GMT on Saturday, December 1st, 2012 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.
Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.
Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points. Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not.Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.SpoilerNAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features
1st|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
2nd|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
3rd|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
4th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
5th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
6th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
7th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
8th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
9th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
10th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
11th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
12th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
13th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
14th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
15th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
16th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
17th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
18th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
19th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
20th|New Class Level|+x|+x|+x|+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]
CodeSpoiler[b]NAME OF ENTRY[/b]
{table=head][b]Level[/b]|[b]Class[/b]|[b]Base Attack Bonus[/b]|[b]Fort Save[/b]|[b]Ref Save[/b]|[b]Will Save[/b]|[b]Skills[/b]|[b]Feats[/b]|[b]Class Features[/b]
1st|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
2nd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
3rd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
4th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
5th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
6th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
7th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
8th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
9th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
10th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
11th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
12th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
13th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
14th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
15th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
16th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
17th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
18th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
19th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities
20th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]
For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)SpoilerSpells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]
CodeSpoiler[b]Spells per day/Spells Known[/b]
{table=head][b]Level[/b]|[b]0lvl[/b]|[b]1st[/b]|[b]2nd[/b]|[b]3rd[/b]|[b]4th[/b]|[b]5th[/b]|[b]6th[/b]|[b]7th[/b]|[b]8th[/b]|[b]9th[/b]
1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]
For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.
So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!
This week's special ingredient is:
Magic of Eberron's Renegade Mastermaker!
We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.
Allez optimiser!
Contestants
Judges
The Builds
Past Competitions
Iron Chef I: Entropomancer
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord
Iron Chef V: War Chanter
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo
Iron Chef XII: War Mind
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple
Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver
Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin
Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar
Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master
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2012-11-03, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
FAQ:
Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes, but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.
What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.
Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Similarly, materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.
What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.
Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.
What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Amphetryon is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.
What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.
But, Amph, Renegade Mastermaker can reasonably get 9th level spells! Where's the challenge? If your expectation is that all the presented builds will have 9th level spells, the challenge would appear to lie in choosing the right combination of spells, complementing Classes and Feats, and other abilities to make judges see why your creation is especially awesome, and why it could not have been so with another PrC that also grants that level of spell acquisition. Good luck!
What ruling(s) are we working with for the Battlefist? They're all confusing and stuff. For the purposes of this contest, a Renegade Mastermaker's Battlefist does 1d6 damage, + STR modifier, if you are Small size, and scales up in damage as any other weapon of that size and that base damage. It is always considered a 1-handed, light weapon unless you take Feats or other abilities that would modify this fact. A Renegade Mastermaker's Battlefist is not the same item as the Warforged component of the same name in the ECS, regardless of name and other similarities you may see.
What ruling(s) are we working with for Dragonmarks? There's contradictory information out there on whether changing form keeps or loses Dragonmarks. For the purposes of this contest, we're going to treat the Construct Exemplar transformation as following the rules for Reincarnation regarding Dragonmarks, rather than following the rules for the Dragonborn's Ritual of Rebirth. There appears to be equal precedence for either; this ruling comes down on the 'permissive' rather than 'restrictive' side.Last edited by Amphetryon; 2012-11-05 at 09:07 AM.
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2012-11-03, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
well, I'm in. I love this class.
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2012-11-03, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
I have the book but never looked at that PrC before...
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2012-11-03, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-03, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Cleveland, OH
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
Ugh... of all the rules headaches to walk into a kitchen... Battlefist.
Why did it have to be Battlefist?
And then... they made the rules headaches *worse*...Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
Builds:
Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
Spells:
Druidzilla, Healbot, Gish
Iron Chef:
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2012-11-03, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
can we get some rulings on how our battlefists work? they're all confusing and stuff.
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2012-11-03, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
This . . . has the potential to be ugly, just from a rules headache perspective. I hope that this ends up not being the case.
I will say that you'd have to trot out a pretty good-sized check to make me judge this round. Kudos to everyone with the fortitude to do so.In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
My compiled Iron Chef stuff!
~ Gay all day, queer all year ~
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2012-11-03, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
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2012-11-03, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
Umm, maybe I'm not reading correctly; but why is Battlefist a rule's mess? From my reading while named the same it is quite distinct from the Battlefist warforged component.
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2012-11-03, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- The last place you look
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
That's what you "ugh" about? I've wanted to enter these for a while, but have a single splatbook (Complete Adventurer, by the way). The only two classes I have access to that have been the ingredient since I joined the Playground are the dragon disciple and shadowdancer. So if my annoyed outburst didn't get the point across, can we pwease have a class from the SRD next? I REALLY want to join one of these, but don't have most splatbooks
Avatar by Venetian Mask. It's of an NPC from a campaign I may yet run (possibly in PbP) who became a favorite of mine while planning.
I am a 10/14/11/15/12/14 LG Clr 2
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2012-11-03, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
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2012-11-03, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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2012-11-03, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
- Location
- Bellona
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
OK, I've got an idea, possibly a pretty good one. I'll have to see if it can pan out...
Optimization Showcase in the Playground
Former projects:
Shadowcaster Handbook
Archer Build Compendium
Iron Chef Awards!
Spoiler
GOLD
IC LXXVI: Talos
IC LXXV: Alphonse Louise Constant
IC XLIX: Babalon, Queen of Bones
IC XLV: Dead Mists
IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
IC XXXIX: AM-1468
IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
IC XXX: Jal Filius
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2012-11-03, 11:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
If the two battlefists are one in the same, then it actually clarifies some things... I would go into more detail, but rather than risk speculation, that might be better resolved via PM.
Can we get a ruling on whether the Battlefist from ECS and the Battlefist in Renegade Mastermaker are one in the same? That is, does the text from ECS apply to the Battlefist provided by Renegade Mastermaker, or should we treat them as two different types of components?
I'd like to see the SRD PrCs finished off as well. I mean, seriously... no one has done Duelist yet?!?Last edited by Darrin; 2012-11-03 at 11:06 PM.
Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
Builds:
Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
Spells:
Druidzilla, Healbot, Gish
Iron Chef:
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2012-11-04, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
Wait a second...
WE'VE GOT A DRAGON DISCIPLE OVER HERE, MATES.
Renegade Mastermaker changes your type to Construct with the Living Construct subtype (I presume, as all it states is your type changes to Living Construct). The entry requirements for Renegade Mastermaker include Type:Humanoid.
So you hit level 10, become a living construct and no longer fulfill the requirements for the prestige class (as you are no longer a Humanoid). Which means you lose the benefits from it.
Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
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2012-11-04, 01:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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- Where I live.
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2012-11-04, 03:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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- Utah
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
Now, now ... if we hurry and do all the SRD PrCs, then someone else will join the Playground afterwards and start complaining that all the SRD PrCs were done before she could participate.
Besides, Duelist is a rather lame PrC even by Iron Chef standards. Arcane Archer, Blackguard, Dwarven Defender, and Horizon Walker might be ok ingredients, though. Although two of them are racially restrictive.You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2012-11-04, 04:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Stillwater
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
Actually, I have an idea for this too. I may enter.
I assume from the 8/10 casting progression that this will edition will have high standards for power.
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2012-11-04, 09:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
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2012-11-04, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
Last edited by Amphetryon; 2012-11-04 at 09:27 AM.
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2012-11-04, 10:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Cleveland, OH
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
Shouldn't the default size be 1d6 = medium? A small-sized character would have a 1d4 battlefist.
As a natural weapon, however, you can use Power Attack with it. By my reading, if it's not your primary weapon, you can use it as either a secondary natural attack, or as an offhand attack.
So... once we're considered Warforged (or add the Mighty Arms graft), we can mount the ECS Battlefist in addition to the RM Battlefist? Do we get two 1d8 slams then, or just one? Can we TWF with both battlefists, or just the RM version?
It's somewhat more silly than just that... Living Construct is actually a subtype, not a type. I'm... not entirely sure what the designer intended here, but I think he wanted the type to change to Construct, with Living Construct as a subtype.
The alternative would be your type remains Humanoid, but you gain the Living Construct subtype. While this may be closer to RAW, I think RAI might be the best way to go here.Last edited by Darrin; 2012-11-04 at 10:22 AM.
Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
Builds:
Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
Spells:
Druidzilla, Healbot, Gish
Iron Chef:
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2012-11-04, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
By making the default 1d6 for Small size, it falls in line with the ECS Battlefist's damage for Medium, which was the intent of the ruling. Incidentally, the verbiage "shouldn't" comes across with baggage of "no, you're wrong, and here's why," with the rider that the "no you're wrong, and here's why" applies to all commentary to follow in the post. Was that your intent?
As a natural weapon, however, you can use Power Attack with it. By my reading, if it's not your primary weapon, you can use it as either a secondary natural attack, or as an offhand attack.
So... once we're considered Warforged (or add the Mighty Arms graft), we can mount the ECS Battlefist in addition to the RM Battlefist? Do we get two 1d8 slams then, or just one? Can we TWF with both battlefists, or just the RM version?
It's somewhat more silly than just that... Living Construct is actually a subtype, not a type. I'm... not entirely sure what the designer intended here, but I think he wanted the type to change to Construct, with Living Construct as a subtype.
The alternative would be your type remains Humanoid, but you gain the Living Construct subtype. While this may be closer to RAW, I think RAI might be the best way to go here.Last edited by Amphetryon; 2012-11-04 at 10:46 AM.
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2012-11-04, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
Ah, another ingredient I'm not familiar enough with to either cook with or judge. Unfortunate, but them's the breaks. Good luck to all who will still be involved.
It's been a bit, GitP. If you're reading this, you're either digging through old stuff, or I've posted for the first time in forever.
If you want to stay in touch, reach out to me on twitter (same username).
The best answer is always to ask your DM.
Unless you're the DM, in which case you should talk to your players.
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2012-11-04, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2006
- Location
- Cleveland, OH
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
The 1d6 damage is granted as a class feature. Normally, when a natural attack is granted via a class feature, template, or soulmeld, the creature's default size is assumed to be medium. Sometimes whatever grants the natural attack tells you to adjust up/down for size differences, but if it doesn't, then the size adjustment is generally implied.
If I'm a medium-sized character that takes a level in Renegade Mastermaker, I get a battlefist that does 1d6 damage by RAW. But you just said it goes up to 1d8 because I'm one size larger than small. (Which you said is so it matches the ECS battlefist... but you declared they were two different things, so why exactly does the damage have to match if they're two different things?)
Sorry, I was just clarifying. No, you didn't say otherwise. Normally, light weapons can't be used with PA. This battlefist is an exception, because it counts as both a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon.
Again, I was just trying to clarify. Normally, a slam attack can't be used as an offhand attack because it's a natural weapon, and those are either treated as primary attacks or secondary attacks by RAW. The text doesn't specify if the slam isn't your primary, do you treat it as a secondary attack, or can it be used as an offhand attack? By my reading of the rules, it can be either, and I just wanted to clarify that.
I have two arms. If I replace one with a Battlefist, I still have another arm. You said the two battlefists were different, so I could mount one as a class feature, then get the mighty arms graft (which is a graft, not a magic item, hence it doesn't take up a "slot"), and then mount the ECS battlefist on my other arm. (The battlefists are enchanted as weapons, not as arm-slot items, so I'm not sure why magic item slots would be an issue.) If this is possible, then the ECS battlefist bumps up the slam damage on my RM battlefist by a size category... and creates some perplexities if I'm considered a Warforged with monk levels.
By RAW, adding the Living Construct subtype to a humanoid doesn't change the type to Construct. It's a subtype, not a type. In this case, there would be no Schrodinger problem: you're still a humanoid, so you still qualify for the PrC.
I was arguing that RAI makes more sense... the designer intended the type to change to Construct, with the Living Construct subtype. In this case, I'm perfectly happy with your "No Schrodinger" ruling.Last edited by Darrin; 2012-11-04 at 11:29 AM.
Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
Builds:
Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
Spells:
Druidzilla, Healbot, Gish
Iron Chef:
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2012-11-04, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2010
- Location
- Durham
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
*Clears Throat*
To judge this will be interesting.
Anyways my criteria for when I am judging the various builds
Spoiler
Overall
-I'll be starting with 3 in each. Depending on various factors it will go up or down
-I do enjoy backstories and other things of that nature which adds flesh to stats. They turn some numbers into a NPC in a future campaign.
Originality
How different is it compared to the other entries
How does it use the abilities granted in a unique or interesting way
Is the fluff coherent, does the character make any sort of sense
Power
How does it fair at each 5 level bracket. Is the build valid early. Can it hold its own late in the game.
How effective at buffs, and general combat is the character.
Can he go it alone, and how well would he mesh with a party
Elegance
Does anything feel tacked on. Does it make sense for character progression.
Is there an overuse of multiclassing, strange progression through classes.
How well does it all blend into a build. Does it make a straight line or a curving road
Use of Secret Ingredient
When do you get into the class.
How well incorporated it is into the full build
Is it underused, used poorly, not the major focus, or just not fun.
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2012-11-04, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
I don't have any really good ideas, but I'm pretty familiar with the class. Since it doesn't look like it'll be 16+ entries, I'll throw in my hat as well.
Spoiler
Overall
*Like everyone else, you start with a 3 in each catagory
*You don't need to have a backstory element for everything you do, just for the important things, like class or feat chains, or any ACFs
*Eberron has a distinct flavor, but there will be no docking for going somewhere else with the class
Originality
*I realize that you have no idea what other people will do ahead of time, so I'm not going to be comparing it to the rest of the crowd
*Instead, I will compare your character to classic crafter/ RMM builds
*The classes suggested in the PrC itself will not be thought of as original unless you can do something unique with it
Power
*Its a 8/10 casting class, power is a word tossed around. I don't want people to say "It has 9s, its powerful"
* Rather, I will judge the suggested unique combinations and strategies that are possible with just that build, or limited to a certain build group. If your Build has unique abilities that add power to the typical caster, that is what I judge
*Keep in mind that power isn't just in terms of combat. Its the character's overall ability to solve and complete encounters at maximum efficiency
Elegance
*Did you manage to make the most of feat taxes? Or did you just take Human for the bonus feat and call it good?
* Elegance is the flow of the character, are the abilities gained at a level when they matter? Or do they come in too late for me to care.
*Did you meet all prereqs? Does your build use any shady interpretations of RAW? Do you abuse anything like magical traps?
Use of Secret Ingredient
*Are the abilties of the class relevent at the level you gain them?
*Is the character built around the class? Or is the class just there to get the casting?
*How many of the class features do you utilize above their normal benefits?
*Do you take all 10 levels of the PrC? Why(Besides the fact that its the class for this competition?)
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2012-11-04, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Bellona
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
Dang, original idea already is having trouble. I found a variation that will work but maybe loses some "cool" points, so I'll still probably have an entry... But man, I want to get this first idea to work!
Optimization Showcase in the Playground
Former projects:
Shadowcaster Handbook
Archer Build Compendium
Iron Chef Awards!
Spoiler
GOLD
IC LXXVI: Talos
IC LXXV: Alphonse Louise Constant
IC XLIX: Babalon, Queen of Bones
IC XLV: Dead Mists
IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
IC XXXIX: AM-1468
IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
IC XXX: Jal Filius
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2012-11-04, 05:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
I'm not 100% sure what exactly the designer intended, but the way I've done it in the past (what I understand the rules to mean) is indeed this, you enter as a humanoid, and come out as a humanoid with the living construct subtype.
Is this what the ruling is for the purposes of the contest? despite what MoE says, living construct isn't a type.I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
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Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2012-11-04, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX
which is a graft, not a magic item, hence it doesn't take up a "slot"